NeverwinterMUSH



  • Spells are supported as much as possible. Mainly through RP, we're working on supporting them in +combat as well but since it isn't the focus of the game it's not on high priority right now.

    Magic items are little touchier of a subject because it's difficult to keep track of who has what and the potential Magic Item ex machina whenever a character gets stuck does pose potential for issues down the road.

    I haven't fully decided on an end-all rule, but right now the guideline is: Weapons and armor are limited in power and code doesn't support them in +combat. All other items are RP based and nothing gives you so much power that you're the AwesomerKnight. PC's are generally heroic and awesome, so having cool trinkets and such are going to happen. If I encounter any negative side effects of this, I'll address it then.


  • Pitcrew

    @NightAngel12 said in NeverwinterMUSH:

    Spells are supported as much as possible. Mainly through RP, we're working on supporting them in +combat as well but since it isn't the focus of the game it's not on high priority right now.

    Speaking as someone who worked on making mutations work as much as possible with FS3, you can do a surprising amount with custom weapons, armor, and stances.



  • The way it is presented is snarky. But, I am of the opinion that being fully transparent about mechanics encourages players to focus on mechanics. They think about the code. About stats. They tend to think about that more than "what would my character do" and "how would my character feel". I'm pretty blah on that. I get that not everyone is into fully immersive rp but I sure am.


  • Coder

    @NightAngel12 said in NeverwinterMUSH:

    As for exposure to the FS3 system -- If you haven't played a MUSH that uses it, and I acknowledge that some people haven't which is why I used the term 'most', then I don't see any reason not to play one that uses it -- in the form of my mush.

    While Soapbox has changed from its very early Wora forms, most people here are WoD players and very few of us have been exposed to FS3. We've been exposed to @faraday (not like that), but I would be a complete newbie to playing FS3 in general and your incarnation in specific. I would bet that most of us are in the same boat.

    Just ... assume that nobody has ever seen your game or its system before. If they are familiar, then either let them know which file they can skip to or let them skim and nod.


  • Pitcrew

    @Kanye-Qwest It is why I prefer RPI stat presentation to must MUSHes where a person cannot see the exact number. They just get a descriptive rating of something like Abysmal, Bad, Poor, Fair, Average, Above Average, Good, Great, Superb, Legendary.


  • Coder

    @Ominous I think that's my ideal as well, but it breaks down in practice. If you have unlimited points, you can say "Just pick how good you should be". But once you limit CG points and can't be as good as you think you should be, it becomes an exercise in figuring "what can I get by without". That means understanding the mechanics to avoid screwing yourself over.

    Also, many RPG systems have level descriptions that don't hold up under scrutiny. So just because the name says "Good", that doesn't mean you will actually be good. This leads people to distrust the descriptions and want to dive deeper into the mechanics.


  • Pitcrew

    @Kanye-Qwest said in NeverwinterMUSH:

    The way it is presented is snarky. But, I am of the opinion that being fully transparent about mechanics encourages players to focus on mechanics. They think about the code. About stats. They tend to think about that more than "what would my character do" and "how would my character feel". I'm pretty blah on that. I get that not everyone is into fully immersive rp but I sure am.

    It's not even about 'fully immersive rp'. In fact, I'd argue that I can't even be 'fully immersed' if I don't fully understand the system which is supposed to represent the character that I want to play. If my character is supposed to be good at swording, and I accidentally make one that is wholly ineffectual, that isn't 'full immersion'. That is me stuck with a character I didn't intend to play, with my only options to be to ask to try and fix it, to play something I don't want to play, or kick that character to the curb and try again fresh.

    There is a wide, wide, WIDE gulf between min-maxers who will ignore what their character should be bad at (such as posing being suave while having below-average social stats) and those who want to make sure their sheet accurately reflects the character they want to play.



  • @BlondeBot said in NeverwinterMUSH:

    @Kanye-Qwest said in NeverwinterMUSH:

    The way it is presented is snarky. But, I am of the opinion that being fully transparent about mechanics encourages players to focus on mechanics. They think about the code. About stats. They tend to think about that more than "what would my character do" and "how would my character feel". I'm pretty blah on that. I get that not everyone is into fully immersive rp but I sure am.

    It's not even about 'fully immersive rp'. In fact, I'd argue that I can't even be 'fully immersed' if I don't fully understand the system which is supposed to represent the character that I want to play.

    LOL ok. That's you, though. I gave my opinion.



  • @Glitch said in NeverwinterMUSH:

    This is so adversarial and dismissive. There's absolutely a difference between "I don't want my character to suck at what he's supposed to be good at" and "min/maxing". Obfuscating the mechanics just means that people that have been around for awhile will have figured some things out, leaving new people in the dark.

    Whenever I see this on a game I'm reminded of Castle Marrach.

    Being reminded of Castle Marrach is not a good thing, just to be clear here.

    The specifics this time are that on Castle Marrach, the only combat system that ever got coded was the dueling system. It was supposedly designed to "foster RP" by concealing actual skill levels, which skills existed, etc. Except...

    1. Staff knew the system, obviously, and mysteriously their characters had all the hidden skills.
    2. There was a timing component to the system that permitted people who knew about it to punch WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY the fuck above their skill level.

    The result was a system that "fostered RP" and "de-emphasized min/maxing" through secrecy that did exactly the opposite.

    Don't be lazy. Give people information and do your job as staffers during the app process in applying the "power level" you wish for your game. Keeping mechanics secret (for a system that is widely known as you say) is ineffective. Further, suggesting that knowing or wishing to know the mechanics mean people should play a MUD you know, well-- it's not an attitude that speaks well of the place.

    +1 for every sentence above.



  • @faraday said in NeverwinterMUSH:

    Also, many RPG systems have level descriptions that don't hold up under scrutiny. So just because the name says "Good", that doesn't mean you will actually be good. This leads people to distrust the descriptions and want to dive deeper into the mechanics.

    A case in point is Hero where supposedly every 5 points extra in a stat means you're "twice as good". So +5 strength is "twice as strong".

    But...

    It rarely feels like double anything. +5 strength translates to maybe twice the lifting capacity, but IIRC it translated to, in effect, +1d damage? Something like that? So if I went from 10 strength to 15 strength I went from 2D damage to 3D damage. 2D damage averages 7 points. 3D averages 10.5. So "double strength" translates to "50% more damage". And that's if you go from 10 to15. The "doubling" effect is even lamer if you go, say, from 50 strength to 55 (35 average to 38.5 average).

    Textual descriptions match actual experienced game reality so rarely that they're usually risible. I want the numbers.


  • Coder

    @WTFE said in NeverwinterMUSH:

    Textual descriptions match actual experienced game reality so rarely that they're usually risible.

    Yeah. I did this analysis once comparing FS3 to other game systems... a "pro" (based on the descriptions) succeeds 86% of the time on a routine task in FS3 but only 59% in FUDGE. That's a pretty vast disparity. The disparity can get even greater if you have different expectations about when you'll be required to roll, what constitutes a "Routine" task, etc.

    Neither interpretation is right or wrong, but getting everyone on the same page is hard when nobody knows what the numbers mean. It's hard even when people do know what the numbers mean (or disagree about what numbers are appropriate) but that's a separate problem.



  • This game gets a hard pass from me.

    I don't do snark in help files.



  • @Admiral Can you give me examples of which help files have 'snark' in them? The current push from staff is to catch all of these and get them changed. They're the end result of hard lessons learned about trust and wizbit granting, and don't reflect mine or the other current staffer's values in information files for players.

    While several have been removed and are being rewritten, we could have missed one or two in the process. I'd personally appreciate files brought to my attention that are worded in snarky, aggressive, or generally unhelpful ways/tones.



  • I was referring to your remarks about min/maxers and MUDs.



  • If you're referring to the original +news Chargen that was screen captured in the first few comments on this thread - That's the exact lesson learned about trust and wizbit granting.

    There was someone I'd worked with in the past on other projects not specifically related to MUSHes or MUDs. I had no reason not to trust their work at the time, and as I was heading out backpacking IRL I asked them to help me out by posting some +news files.

    I have since taken down the news file in question along with several more that were likewise of poor quality and am currently rewriting them personally to ensure better quality in the future.
    We welcome players who enjoy combat situations and will be working on supporting more combat themed RP for those who seek it in our setting in the future. As for min/maxing, I don't really take a stance on it. It works for certain things and does for others. There are some restrictions in place during chargen code wise to help create a level of balance between characters, but I wouldn't tell someone to go somewhere else over a +sheet.

    If I have come across as snarky in previous comments, I must apologize for it. I was caught off-guard when finding out about those files and after trying to deal with that former wizard on the phone, I'll admit to just trying to get something written to broadly answer or respond to past and potential comments, and I wasn't in the 'best' frame of mind.



  • @NightAngel12 You're fine, don't be too bothered by someone on MSB saying HARD PASS. Honestly if a help file you've already acknowledged and taken down for rewriting is what they are pointing to as their no-go, then their interest in the game setting was probably already close to nil.


  • Pitcrew

    @Kanye-Qwest

    Going to agree here. It's an attempt to change behavior and/or shame and/or virtue signal without actually ever having any intention of playing there. It happens a lot here. 'I WILL NOT PLAY ON YOUR GAME BECAUSE YOU DO X'...except they were never ever going to play the game in the first place.



  • @NightAngel12 Definitely don't worry about it. I see a lot of very kind hearted, positive and passionate new game owners sweating the reactions in threads and really you shouldn't be. While it always speaks well of someone that is receptive to concerns and wanting to do right by new people, I think any game owner should also put themselves in the position of the critic to see if it's reasonable.

    Like ask yourself, "Would I randomly post in another thread about a problem that was already addressed, and say then it wasn't for me? Would I log in as a guest and try to poke holes in some game's theme just to be a pedant? Would I grouse about the systems they use, when I have zero valuable input?" If the answer to those is, 'fuck no, I would be a gigantic asshole doing that', then yeah, don't worry about trying to make those people happy. Just worry about making a fun game for you and the people that actually would make your game better rather than worse.



  • I have a few questions as it regards the setting. How are magic users who don't adhere to Bane to be treated? Would they draw their powers from the influences of entities such as Azuth or Corellon? Also, with PCs being allowed to be Banites, this lends itself to a pvp environment. How's that to be handled? Lastly, the feel of the game. The way things are written it's sort of giving me the feel of Empire/Rebellion with the Banites taking the role of the Empire. Is this the intent? I understand staff is trying to be 'different' but I'm trying to get a feel behind the purpose of this setting. Cheers.



  • My advice is to get a website up like the one you can find at aelfhame.net. :P

    Though I guess you can just answer questions here, but they're likely to just come up again on the in-game channels.


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