Regarding administration on MSB



  • I'm also pretty sure the whole "moderation" thing revolved almost entirely around policing ADVERTISEMENT threads.


  • Coder

    @tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    There was no reason for the entire thread to be moved. IDK why this is difficult for you and Ganymede to understand.

    Nobody said there was! My first post on this thread agreed with you that splitting the thread was the right thing to do. Ganymede admitted it was because they didn't know the right command to split it more surgically and Arkandel said they didn't have time to do it tonight. Why are you being so hostile about waiting to have a thread divided?


  • Admin

    @meg Sure, but I did make an attempt to explain.

    ... we have to use our judgment. If it's not consistent enough it's because we are not actually a hive mind (heh...), and we're making this shit up as we go along. The line - for me - is whether the discussion remains civil and attempts to be constructive; is it aiming to suggest ways things can improve, to point out things are not working, or is it just a full-on personal attack? The f-bombs are optional.

    Having said that, you are right in that I probably overplay the 'you asked us' card. I'll try to stop, but it's so addictive.

    @tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    I'm also pretty sure the whole "moderation" thing revolved almost entirely around policing ADVERTISEMENT threads.

    That's incorrect. The whole "moderation" thing was about not making a dumpster fire of every thread everywhere to the point where people who wanted to participate in civil debates about MU* were being chased away.


  • Politics

    @tempest

    There was that, the dogpiling, the wanting to try and avoid becoming what WORA became, etc. Frankly, if I recall, you had a hand in pushing for moderation.

    To your credit, it has kind of worked. Membership's up. Topics are no longer just swirling around the old World of Darkness toilet.

    Look, I don't mind being taken to task. I don't. I will admit that I was frustrated and flippant when I saw what you had posted. My reaction was, literally, "doesn't she know better?"

    But, c'mon. Admit it: you like to push a bit because pushing is what makes things change. It makes life more interesting. You do it; you know it.

    I like your GIFs just fine. I don't mind when you push the envelope a little bit. If you'll help come up with some ideas regarding fair moderation, I'll stop being a rusty, cunty old bint, all right?


  • Admin

    @ganymede said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    I'll stop being a rusty, cunty old bint, all right?

    That's the most british thing I've read today.


  • Pitcrew

    @ganymede

    I think the biggest thing that would help is a clear separation of 'mod voice' and 'poster voice'. By which I mean, make it very clear when you are speaking as a mod, and when you are not.

    In fact, it's probably best to kind of steer clear of things that /sound/ like moderation if they are not meant as moderation, at least until you have an established pattern of said clarity.

    I don't know how to do this. Maybe separate accounts for modding. Maybe bright red text. But it's been a point of confusion several times now.



  • @ganymede said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    you had a hand in pushing for moderation.

    I am 100% for HEAVY moderation in /advertisement threads/.

    Outside of that, when we already have one UH thread in the hog pit, and one outside of it that is mostly fine until some shill comes along and picks a fight with everybody, and then it gets moved entirely on a whim....

    After at least one person WARNED and ASKED you guys to not do it (I think it was @Three-Eyed-Crow?) because of that, I am just facepalming.

    Then after doing exactly what they wanted you to do, you threaten to ban me because of a thread title I use.

    Like, really?

    I jokingly protested you moving the thread and then made that thread with the links.

    IDK what world you live in, but "LITERALLY WORSE THAN HITLER" is a joke. There's no way for that to be taken seriously. Sure, I could've titled it better. But jesus, it could've been a lot worse, too. The "knock it off or you're banned" was absurd. And it made it seem like my 'fuck off' gifs were a key component of why the other thread got moved.

    Especially after @Arkandel literally said @Enarei's posts were fine.



  • I'd suggest making MOD ACCOUNTS that are only used for moderating.

    Also instead of banning, isn't there a no-posting setting? That seems easy enough.



  • @tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    After at least one person WARNED and ASKED you guys to not do it (I think it was @Three-Eyed-Crow?) because of that, I am just facepalming.

    It was me! It apparently got missed (which I believe, given everything going on in that thread) or lost in the scramble just to do SOMETHING. I addressed my issue to @Ganymede and @Arkandel in PMs. There's now a split thread (maybe that one'll go back in Constructive? Idk).

    ETA: Or will be maybe? I seem to have posted while things were in the process of being moved so I will await making any pronouncements.

    ETA 2: And it's split now and back in Mildly Constructive. Thanks.


  • Pitcrew

    @arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    We should (and will, going forward) talk among ourselves more but.

    ok but like, what about? What are the standards? If you want to mod (and I am not saying I am against modding, I mod the FUCK out of arx), you have to have standards that you are applying consistently, across the board. It can't just be a 'do what you feel, man'.


  • Politics

    @tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    Outside of that, when we already have one UH thread in the hog pit, and one outside of it that is mostly fine until some shill comes along and picks a fight with everybody, and then it gets moved entirely on a whim....

    It wasn't moved on a whim. It was flagged for moderation, and was brought to our attention. And then I moved it.

    After at least one person WARNED and ASKED you guys to not do it (I think it was @Three-Eyed-Crow?) because of that, I am just facepalming.

    Just because one person or a group of people ask for splitting does not necessarily mean it will happen. However, we are working with Three-Eyed Crow to split and move. Like, right now.

    Then after doing exactly what they wanted you to do, you threaten to ban me because of a thread title I use.

    No, I threatened to do it because your topic was flagged for moderation and clearly (in my opinion) fell outside of what the Mildly Constructive forum was for. The reminder to follow the rules was heavy-handed because I did expect more from you as a long-time poster.

    That said, what I did was wrong. It was a knee-jerk reaction, for which there are a myriad of reasons completely unrelated to you. So, it was wrong, and you may judge me poorly for that.

    IDK what world you live in, but "LITERALLY WORSE THAN HITLER" is a joke. There's no way for that to be taken seriously. Sure, I could've titled it better. But jesus, it could've been a lot worse, too.

    In my world, that is not a joke. I'm pretty sure the same for many others. You could have titled it better. You didn't. Even so, what I did was unjustifiable.

    So, about fair moderation now? Your suggestions?


  • Pitcrew

    @arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    @ganymede said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    I'll stop being a rusty, cunty old bint, all right?

    That's the most british thing I've read today.

    Wait until @Tinuviel wakes up.

    @misadventure said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    I'd suggest making MOD ACCOUNTS that are only used for moderating.

    I mean, sure, but it'd be the same as on MU*s with staff. If a staff-alt says 'Hey can we not talk about this on channel?' it's assumed to be STAFF VOICE. So really we'd just be having to log into another account to achieve... not much. And we're all lazy.



  • If we want no personal insults outside of the Hog Pit, that needs to be clear cut and dry, IMO. Otherwise it's left up to some ambiguous standard of "what crosses the line into being /too/ insulting". There's a lot of "you're an idiot" "you're pathetic", etc, that seems to get by without issue until somebody blows up in response. (This will probably be hard for people like me to get used to, but if we're going to do it, it needs to be a clear line.)

    And I apologize for my comments here outside of the hog pit. I was agitated.



  • Mildly constructive is pretty nebulous, since almost all of the big blowups are about behavior of either players or staff, any criticism of that is gonna seem like a personal attack anyways. I think it's always going to be tone and whether or not a post is suggesting constructive changes, rather than asking if they would consider dying in a fire or fornicating with themselves.


  • Pitcrew

    @tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    If we want no personal insults outside of the Hog Pit, that needs to be clear cut and dry, IMO.

    My vote, but I am a mod so I understand if it gets at peoples' jimmies that I voice it... is to avoid personal insults outside of the Pit. Not because of 'we must be happy fluffy forever!' but because almost every time a personal insult comes out, the thread becomes a dumpster fire.

    Like that first 'UR DUMB AND UR FAS IS DUMB' comes out, it's basically the Steel Chair Effect.


  • Politics

    @apos said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    I think it's always going to be tone and whether or not a post is suggesting constructive changes ... .

    I think we can agree that this, too, is pretty nebulous.


  • Pitcrew

    My thing is, like...it only seems to be addressed as a personal insult when it's actually somebody responding to being personally insulted. Like, it's totally okay for @Tempest to imply I'm a lazy ass, but when I say 'no, actually, you are the lazy ass' suddenly people are wagging fingers. Not that this exchange has happened, specifically, I'm just using Tempest to illustrate my point. This feels gross. Just like when a mod was doing X behavior in one thread while taking people to task for the same behavior in another thread. Like, either mod or don't. This 'both thing, somewhere in between' is terrible, and personally, no, I did NOT ask for THIS.


  • Pitcrew

    Like, it was OK for dude to lie and call us all pathetic, it was the 'hey this was literally in the log we can all see you are lying' is the over the line into the personal? What?


  • Coder

    @sunny said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    Like, it was OK for dude to lie and call us all pathetic, it was the 'hey this was literally in the log we can all see you are lying' is the over the line into the personal? What?

    Obviously the mods will make their own decision about where the line is between constructive and hog pit lies.

    FWIW, for me it lies with personal attacks. It doesn't matter if the other person responds. Constructive is: "I disagree with you because <reasons>." Unconstructive is: "I disagree with you and you're an idiot if you can't see why your idea is dumb".


  • Pitcrew

    @faraday How was calling us all pathetic and saying that we were lying about something that was demonstrably true even remotely constructive?

    ETA: I mean seriously, I do understand the difference between constructive and non-constructive criticism. The implication that I don't is kind of offensive. The fact of the matter is, that's not how this is being enforced. Even a little bit.