Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game


  • Pitcrew

    @Claremont I think you may be dealing with a game in its death throes. You seem an okay sort and I won't blame you for demanding evidence. I will blame you for not looking after the health of your own game. But it is yours, I suppose.

    Sadly, you alienated (or demotivated) a bunch of creative storytellers to backup an administrator who is just playing beloved characters to type 'fuck'.

    I just want a comic place where the focus is on storytelling and events (people actually running and signing up for events is the better gauge of MU health than 'we had 5 shitty social scenes with Nightcrawler hitting on everybody posted tonight') instead of a bunch of weekly dinner party scenes. That's not a healthy capeMU, that's a sandbox on its last legs populated by people who might benefit from a RL friend to shoot the shit with (instead of wasting a character like Spider-Man or Nightcrawler)..

    It is impossible to get anything real going at your place, because you have chosen people who want to treat FCs like characters from an R-Rated Degrassi over people who want to do fun, interesting things with them.

    edit: You can read my post history and see I've got no love for people who try and play the victim card. I was even originally on your side because you seemed so damned reasonable (bravo, by the way). But at a certain point, after reading the logs before and after you forced pretty much everyone worth a damn (I could name 3 or 4 decent players still there, that's it) to leave in order to avoid being harassed by greasy TS-hounds, I had to change my mind.

    Also the fact that I strongly suspect you're the Spider-Man player, who should be drawn and quartered for doing that to such a fantastic character. Seriously, OCs exist - if you just want to diddle Psylocke, make an OC to do it and let someone who wants to play Spider-Man as Spider-Man, do so.

    See also: plot > TS and mindless social scenes. This is the secret to a good cape place. Seems you, and the people left behind comfortable with playing with (or even drawn to) BDSM Emma Frost, have chosen the latter. It's a shame, because there was a ton of potential a while back and now it's just... gone.



  • @Claremont If everyone is treated the same, and everyone is bound by the same rules, then there is no reason whatsoever that Ditko should not have been secretly flagged suspect and banned the minute he made an inappropriate sexual advance on someone (even his own friends and cohorts) in pages, since that is the standard that you set for Illyana. Saying anything else is being outright disrespectful and deceitful. This is why I say you're a joke. You can spit all the legalese in the world, but your actions do not match with your words. Not in the slightest.



  • Part of the reason I left was because my talking to a friend was suddenly part of 'evidence' used against them. So as someone not even involved, I was having my PMs read too. And that skeeves me the FUCK out.



  • Right. Another thing that Claremont and Co do not acknowledge. Their use of Suspect on Illyana, as unethical as it was, by itself, not only violated any illusion of privacy she held, but also for every single person she interacted with in pages. In this way, they could have been looking for the people who shared her thoughts and begin targeting them with the same tactics.



  • As noted, this is the conversation I had with Ruby after coming home from work to find the New Mutants group was gone:

    https://pastebin.com/zjKY8gin

    The claim that Doug quit directly contrasts with what I've seen said that he was removed. I think an attempt was made here later on to clarify that, but I don't remember exactly.

    And, even after I said what I did about communicating, they never explained anything further that I saw.


  • Admin

    @claremont said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    @three-eyed-crow Ditko offered to resign as staff at United Heroes MUSH based on the acrimony he had seemed to engender in people who post on this forum.

    I hadn't read the latest on this thread until now, so the response comes a bit late.

    You owe nothing to people who post on this forum. If that's the basis of your actions, or even Ditko's, then it was a fundamental mistake. You shouldn't do anything to silence complaints here.

    Who you do absolutely owe something to is your actual players. There seem to have been allegations by multiple sources, unrelated to each other, about abuse by a single person. Those people deserve as much of your loyalty and protection as you have extended to your (former, now) staff member. They are the ones you should be taking care of.

    @Kanye-Qwest asked an important question. If you are going to collect your own information right out of your game's stored data then why rely on testimonies to begin with, especially if you don't trust the latter? And if you did that then why not be transparent about it, rather than try to silence posts and mails of those who believed themselves victimised by someone who staffed for you?



  • @phase-face Not to be rude but I read all of your logs. I have also read all 10 pages of this discussion and I have to say as someone with a neutral pov, the person who played Illyana was beyond rude and disrespectful. Multiple allegations were made against Staff with no proof to back it up. If Staff were harassing players were are those logs? It is not difficult to create a backlog, most programs it is just a single button, yet no backlogs of anything were shown were staff acted out of turn. The logs that were provided, by you, show Illyana's flippant attitude towards Staff, and other characters, on that MU*. You and your friends continue to point out that the Illyana player was not informed she was bothering others, however in your own logs said player admits that when she was asked, or told, to stop she did every time. Meaning she had multiple verbal warnings about her behavior.

    I have been MU*ing since the mid 90's. I have seen a lot of stuff in my times and I have seen certain people who like to go from game to game, causing problems, and then blowing up when things do not go their way. I am not saying all of you fit this bill, but your overall actions lead me to question your motives. I personally, if having to deal with a person playing a FC, would have reacted accordingly. The player did not contribute to the game, the logs of all her scenes were few and when questioned she stated she RPed more than that, but did not log any of it. I checked the MU* in question, they have a very quick command to log a scene.

    Furthermore if said player had multiple complaints against them, which said player denies being informed of said complaints but then backtracks and said when people complained she stopped, then monitoring makes total sense. And even if these verbal warnings were not given I see the MU* has a +news file noting that a player can be removed from the game, without 3 strikes given, if they are disrupting the game or harassing people. I also see mention in their files about Abuse, Disagreements, and so forth. All of these files are dating back in Feb, so I am sure they were available when you were playing there. You complain about the removal of bbposts. I read the bbposts you logged and they come off as pretentious. You act like a baby whose rattle was taken by another baby and just whining. In those posts it was stated about the whole Emma thing that she had not ICly become part of the school, no RP was done, and it was only in the planning stages. She was not on the +group listing either I see, I went on the check. Also reading the posts I see quite a bit of slander with no proof to back up claims. If I was the Admin I would have removed them as well, slander and hearsay are not progressive or worthy of posts kept active.

    So to just summarize. A FC Player was not active on the grid, was rude to staff and other players, was verbally asked to quit by staff or other players multiple times, was flagged for said harassment which brought to light near constant negative ideals about staff and said player was removed from the game. Her 'clique' left as well and then they all came here to vent and whine. Offering no proof about their allegations, yet furthering their own narcissistic tendencies, and rallying others behind them by using slander. The 'proof' they then shared with others shows said players being rude to staff and admitting to being told to stop, multiple times.

    Now my personal opinion is this. It is not your right to play a game, nor is it your right to play a FC. If you go onto a game you should know all the rules listed in the +news as well. A FC was taken by a player. That player then did not RP said FC, with logs proving said RP. That player was repeatedly asked to stop harassment, rather it be intentional or not, by not only staff but also players. That player was then monitored for behavior and asked to quit. All that is reasonable in my eyes. "But privacy and my bbposts!" You do not pay for that game to be active. You did not spend your hours creating the game or keeping the game together. You are simply an entitled grain of sand on a beach. Get over it. Stop acting like a child. I have been on Superhero MU*s probably since they started. Illyana for some reason, as a character, draws in players which have issues. And I see this game was no different.



  • I'm just wondering why people are responding to @Claremont as if he just doesn't understand and needs to have things clarified for him.

    He's part of the problem. He's the ringleader. He's the spin doctor. He knows exactly what's going on and condones it. That's been made clear from his past replies and everything that's been said and logged.



  • @enarei Countdown to the reveal that this person with one post justifying the use of the suspect flag on Illyana and her subsequent banning is, indeed, a staffer on UH?



  • @meg Actually no. I have been reading these boards for a bit. I made an account because I have noticed the majority of posts here tend to be nothing more than witch hunts. I will be making a charbit there now, however, after reading the Staffs comments here and also being on the game to read the bbposts. Once again false allegations are not really warranted but if that is all you know, that is all you can supply.


  • Pitcrew

    @enarei Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    ETA: pssssst. we can see when you joined via your profile.



  • @sunny You can see when I created the account, which was yesterday. I am fully aware. Like I just stated I have been around for a bit, I just made an account. Once again. Assumption of something due to your inability to read what I just typed.

    Which just further proves my point. If you actually read the factual logs provided you would see who was really in the wrong. But instead you jump onto something without bothering to take in the facts.



  • @enarei Ok, you do you, boo. Chase your rainbow and have your opinions. But I haven't been on this board as long as some others, and even I can see that you seem like a staffer creating a profile to defend a bad decision.

    And let's face it, setting someone suspect and banning them because they complain about staff to their friends is a /bad decision/.


  • Pitcrew

    @enarei
    No we can all read what you typed. So while I can see you claim to "have been reading these boards for a bit." there is no reason to necessarily believe you.



  • @meg No. Setting someone Suspect who repeatedly was asked to stop their behavior by Staff and Players and then Banning them when they did not is a good decision. A game does not need toxic players on it. Especially when the +news files have rules listing this course of action in it.


  • Pitcrew

    @enarei Except you've said you've read the logs all presented. And they're behind a wall that you can't read without an account. So. You're a liar one way or the other!



  • @sunny The logs provided by Phase-Face are fully accessible without an Account. As it is a redirecting link to pastebin. But keep grasping at those straws, I am sure sooner or later you might get one that sticks.


  • Pitcrew

    @enarei http://musoapbox.net/topic/1522/united-heroes-mush-from-the-tri-state-area-to-the-stars-marvel-dc-other?page=1

    Start reading. The evidence you're asking for is alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll there.



  • I don't think setting someone Suspect is ever warranted, save for maybe the rare times someone's threatening another person iRL or something like that, perhaps necessitating getting law enforcement involved. If you can not come to a decision as to whether or not a person is harassing someone based on logs provided or something then... I dunno. I can't even, now.



  • @enarei said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    @phase-face Not to be rude but I read all of your logs. I have also read all 10 pages of this discussion and I have to say as someone with a neutral pov, the person who played Illyana was beyond rude and disrespectful. Multiple allegations were made against Staff with no proof to back it up. If Staff were harassing players were are those logs? It is not difficult to create a backlog, most programs it is just a single button, yet no backlogs of anything were shown were staff acted out of turn. The logs that were provided, by you, show Illyana's flippant attitude towards Staff, and other characters, on that MU*. You and your friends continue to point out that the Illyana player was not informed she was bothering others, however in your own logs said player admits that when she was asked, or told, to stop she did every time. Meaning she had multiple verbal warnings about her behavior.

    Illyana definitely has a tendency towards sarcastic speech, and while she contributed to the acrimony in the log between herself and Ruby/Lara Croft that I linked, I think it's fair to say that it came from both sides of the conversation. 'The game owner can do whatever he wants, even if it makes no actual sense or isn't actually discussed/explained to the dozens of affected players' is not a great response to 'wait, how does this plot being sprung on us make sense again?' from a co-head staffer. It may be true, technically, but it's hardly diplomatic or useful; it is in fact, a petulant response to what was a fairly understandable source of confusion.

    Furthermore, as you and she pointed out, on the odd occasion that she was asked - by a staff alt, informally, at least to my memory(Illyana's player would probably remember better than me) - to drop a bothersome line of conversation, she did so. Generally, the worst that I personally witnessed of her OOC presence amounted to rambling about her character, or Wildstorm, or other ultimately harmless things; once or twice, she pushed back against Ruby's alts on channels, but I only ever saw this happen when Ruby was misrepresenting the truth(or snapping to the defensive, as in the log). If it was ever worse than that, then, well, I would like to see those logs, because it's not something I ever saw happen.

    I have been MU*ing since the mid 90's. I have seen a lot of stuff in my times and I have seen certain people who like to go from game to game, causing problems, and then blowing up when things do not go their way. I am not saying all of you fit this bill, but your overall actions lead me to question your motives. I personally, if having to deal with a person playing a FC, would have reacted accordingly. The player did not contribute to the game, the logs of all her scenes were few and when questioned she stated she RPed more than that, but did not log any of it. I checked the MU* in question, they have a very quick command to log a scene.

    Illyana had been engaged in a scene with several players on the day she was spied upon and banned. She wasn't the most active player, but to paint her as /never/ contributing to the game is unfair.

    Furthermore if said player had multiple complaints against them, which said player denies being informed of said complaints but then backtracks and said when people complained she stopped, then monitoring makes total sense. And even if these verbal warnings were not given I see the MU* has a +news file noting that a player can be removed from the game, without 3 strikes given, if they are disrupting the game or harassing people. I also see mention in their files about Abuse, Disagreements, and so forth. All of these files are dating back in Feb, so I am sure they were available when you were playing there.

    She was never - again, to my knowledge, maybe this is incorrect - informed of any of the apparent deluge of administrative complaints lodged against her over a more than two month span. If a player had genuinely been the source of numerous complaints over a period of months, wouldn't it make sense to pull them into a conversation to address their behavior and perhaps deliver a warning to knock it off, rather than waiting for an excuse to log her pages, then ban her based on them? What she referenced happening is totally different from what should have - and never did - occur in terms of the administration trying to curb her behavior, if they felt it problematic. Again - if she actively harassed other players or disrupted the game, it's not something I personally saw, and it's not something that the admins were able to actually demonstrate beyond the contents of her private venting in pages.

    It is not difficult to create a backlog, most programs can do it with just a single button. Yet no backlogs of anything were shown were Illyana acted out of turn, beyond a couple of comments about some players not being wild about playing with her. This could be construed as a bannable offense depending on the surrounding context, but since we have none, and all we're going off of is 'some people didn't want to scene with her', well, there are a plenty of other players who probably ought to be banned as well, both on UH and on other games; she is hardly the first MU*er whose presence has discouraged others from joining scenes with her.

    You complain about the removal of bbposts. I read the bbposts you logged and they come off as pretentious. You act like a baby whose rattle was taken by another baby and just whining. In those posts it was stated about the whole Emma thing that she had not ICly become part of the school, no RP was done, and it was only in the planning stages. She was not on the +group listing either I see, I went on the check. Also reading the posts I see quite a bit of slander with no proof to back up claims. If I was the Admin I would have removed them as well, slander and hearsay are not progressive or worthy of posts kept active.

    Emma Frost did a scene establishing that she was now in charge of the Xavier School on the Saturday before Illyana was banned/people left. The scene included Nightcrawler, Cyclops, and perhaps one other person-- can't remember offhand. This was accompanied by a bboard post from Emma Frost's staff alt stating that she was now in charge, as well as her being placed into the OOC XO position for the group(every group has two OOC leadership slots; my character had previously occupied that position and was moved out of it).

    Was I upset at logging on to find out that this seismic shift had been initiated without a word to anyone - not just myself, but the rest of the sphere - prior? Yes, absolutely; it was objectively a poor way of handling the situation and suggested - at best - that the staff was extremely impatient, and at worst, that the affected players didn't really matter. I absolutely could have done a better job in my role as de facto head of the Xavier School, but nonetheless, I put a good six months into trying to play a role that I wasn't super comfortable in for little reason beyond the fact that it was mandated by my choice of character and the lack of a consistent Prof. Xavier player; if there were concerns about the job that I was doing, some inkling that perhaps another person ought to be brought in to run things, I would have been happy to discuss that and make the appropriate arrangements, up to and including being wholly supplanted in my role for the sake of plot. That I wasn't given that basic consideration is what bothered me most about the situation, not that I lost the shiny leadership role that I didn't ask for to begin with(at Xavier's; I did, months into my stint, ask to be set as second in command for the X-Men-- because Professor Xavier was in that position, and again, there was never a consistent player behind that character, including him being uncast when I asked. I would have been happy to let someone else have it, had they wanted it, and in fact someone else had been set to share that spot with me not long before I left).

    Regardless of all that, I was ready to move on and play ball with the plot(with, perhaps, the stipulation that we take a few steps back to figure out a way to make it make actual sense); I've stated this multiple times in both the @mail I linked and in the discussions surrounding the situation, so I'm not quite sure where the comparison to a baby with a rattle comes from, unless there's an implied third act in which I just shrug and crawl off to find a new toy.

    Since the rest serves to summarize the first parts of the post, I don't think it's necessary to address them directly and reiterate what I've already said. Obviously, you're welcome to your opinion as a neutral observer, but I think your read on this situation is flawed on a few levels. I don't really appreciate being characterized as a whiny narcissist who may or may not be a serial problem player, especially based off of a half-formed understanding of the surrounding circumstances.

    You are correct that playing a game and playing an FC aren't rights, but neither is jerking players around as staff via manipulation(such as being told that a group is being broken up due to non-existant requests) or disregard(everything to do with Emma and the School); owning the game may entitle them to treat it as they like, but they are certainly not entitled to maintaining a playerbase if they can't be bothered to treat them decently.


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