New Vampire Release



  • @thenomain said in New Vampire Release:

    Wait, Mark Rein•Hagen is involved? Did they find him couch-surfing in California?

    He is most definitely on this couch.

    @Bobotron I had to cough a little at the fashion bit but will reserve comment save for: "stiff, ungainly, ill-matched, and awkard 'meh'". I could frouf that out in a proper critique but it'd boil down to that in the end. Theno will probably hate me for this, but I otherwise love the page layout and splatter dynamic. Personally would have tilted it the other way, though, for ease of reading. (LTR we visually read indents more easily than outdents.) Just... none of the photo contents at all. Or the bodywrap words.



  • I got to play a playtest for V5 and I'm 100% on board. I ended up picking up the Elder package. We're definitely going to be playing this game around my coffee table. It's pretty much done everything I'd hoped Masquerade would do:

    1. Replace blood points with a hunger system: It's no longer about twinking blood economy, but the relative hunger your vampire gains due to using their blood.
    2. Insert a story element that neutralizes a world filled with ancient 4000 xp elder PCs: You can't seem to find a VtM game (online or not) that isn't overburdened with supreme elder cheese characters with every discipline, every stat maxed, and way too much IC comfort. The new setting will make it difficult to be a vampire again.
    3. A return to the clans/structure we started with: While I prefer nWoD's system, I always will love the original VtM clans more. It'll be a lot of fun getting back to the world of Camarilla/Anarch with Brujah, Gangrel, Tremere, etc
    4. A New Inquisition: This second inquisition element is exciting. It's inserting into the setting that Vampires aren't the apex predators anymore, and maybe in a tongue-in-cheek way suggests that an era of one too many breaches of the masquerade have resulted in a severe need to worry about a 21st century society armed with cell phones, phone cameras, and near instant access to posting on Instagram.

    I think the new ownership of the IP has really looked at the downsides of the oWoD game(s) and min-maxy player habits, and has made some really good decisions about how to play in the spirit of the setting.



  • @surreality
    I'll defer to you guys. My idea of fashion is matching and contrasting. Fuck, my best friend's wife and my fiance had to fight me to get me to buy bluesemi-casual pants yesterday.

    @Ghost
    I agree. I'm holding of on preordering until next month (as the preorder will be open until the shipping starts), in hopes that we get a teaser out of PDXCon, since they said they'll be previewing the final thing there. Maybe a 'final preview document' or something will be released. So far though I've been cautiously optimistic. But damn that shipping.



  • @ghost
    Also, honestly, from a MU* standpoint? I can see Hunger being a good mechanic for MU* to use. It's easier to manage from a staff standpoint. I think we talked about this when Hunger was first previewed in another thread.


  • Pitcrew

    @thenomain That was my thought too, Re: Dice



  • @bobotron said in New Vampire Release:

    @ghost
    Also, honestly, from a MU* standpoint? I can see Hunger being a good mechanic for MU* to use. It's easier to manage from a staff standpoint. I think we talked about this when Hunger was first previewed in another thread.

    Agreed.

    IMO a major problem with WoD is that powers are too useful. Be it blood/essence/etc economy, one of the bad habits that comes from a lot of WoD is relying so much on powers that most skill dot selections are done only to maximize the dice pool for a power scheme.

    Inserting something like hunger will make players ask: "Do I want to use a power and risk becoming hungrier, or use skills to solve the problem?"

    In the end, from what I experienced when I played the v5 playtest, it makes the character feel more like a monster battling against their inhumanity than a normal person with superpowers who just happens to be a vampire.

    V5 makes it a lot harder for players to cheese power use, humanity rolls, and behaving like vampires by linking power use to self control.



  • Also, apparently Dhaunae de Vir, who is working with WW for things for V5, says the covers aren't final.


  • Admin

    @ghost said in New Vampire Release:

    IMO a major problem with WoD is that powers are too useful. Be it blood/essence/etc economy, one of the bad habits that comes from a lot of WoD is relying so much on powers that most skill dot selections are done only to maximize the dice pool for a power scheme.

    I don't think functionality is the problem of the nWoD powerset per se. It's that there really isn't much depth to them; especially for the physical stuff you can really only increase how hard you hit or how hard you can get hit, and since the former scales up faster and outpaces the latter, it very often comes down to initiative rolls.

    Inserting something like hunger will make players ask: "Do I want to use a power and risk becoming hungrier, or use skills to solve the problem?"

    Now that is more like it. Interesting choices would be a great improvement. As it stands if you play a brawler there is simply no reason to not take Vigor - it'd be stupid - or use it at any occasion that even looks like it might be turning violent.

    Making this a significant decision would go a very long way. More so for MUSH, perhaps.

    V5 makes it a lot harder for players to cheese power use, humanity rolls, and behaving like vampires by linking power use to self control.

    Again for MU* I want to see how we'll integrate these to become part of our culture instead of doing the same thing as before and either skipping or downplaying the different mechanics.



  • @arkandel
    I'd say that once people get used to it, it'd be something of a second nature. Do note that in the alpha, hunger affects everything, not just powers.

    You could tie a hunger roll into the core of a +roll engine, and it chucks your hunger stuff when you +roll automatically.

    If you wanted it to just affect powers, You could even have a switch +roll/hunger.



  • I love mechanics that force me to play my character in very specific ways and refer to charts to determine my emotional state. Almost as much as I love arbitrary 'morality' based on what the writer thinks is good or evil.



  • Well, bear in mind that these aren't tables that tell you what your character feels outside of a growing state of tension based on supernatural hunger. Spamming power usage, even on disciplines that didn't used to cost blood, stirs and uses that blood. The beast within wants that blood replaced.

    Like all games with willpower systems, it'll be up to good STs and good players to approach this in good faith.

    I think this new system will be challenging to WoD players that have abused that good faith for a long time. From LARP to TT to MU, I've encountered plenty of players that prefer to focus on the fantastical/power side of RP, avoiding the difficulties of the supernatural element in lieu of more self-fulfilling/less complicated role play. V5 will embrace those challenges.

    V5 doesn't mandate telling people how their characters feel, but the blood/hunger system will definitely make it clear as day when a player is refusing to follow the system when it's inconvenient to them. Now, when a character frenzies in a crowded nightclub, it's far less likely that they can choose to control themselves long enough to leave the crowded nightclub, walk out to an alley, enter access codes to a private warehouse with soundproofing and THEN frenzy where there will be zero repercussions.

    But this is probably a topic for a different thread (re: WoD players abusing the system)



  • So, I found a preorder link that SHIPS FROM THE US ZOMG!

    https://www.gamekastle.com/online/index.php?m=list&psearch=vampire+the+masquerade

    No elder bundle, but still cheaper to buy the things that go in the bundle plus shipping.



  • Are they at least trying to tone down the casual racism this time around?


  • Coder

    @jennkryst

    I'm not sure who knows, but their public alpha adventure toned up the casual pedophilia, so, yay?

    Seeing who's on the writing staff and leading the project, tho, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt that it's been thought-out more since then.



  • @thenomain said in New Vampire Release:

    I'm not sure who knows, but their public alpha adventure toned up the casual pedophilia, so, yay?

    Say what now?


  • Coder

    @derp said in New Vampire Release:

    @thenomain said in New Vampire Release:

    I'm not sure who knows, but their public alpha adventure toned up the casual pedophilia, so, yay?

    Say what now?

    It was a giant stink at the time. One of the characters you play in the alpha rules+adventure must drink from the innocent, heavily, deeply implying minors, plus the sensuality that comes with vampires. It was pretty easy to see how people took this in an offensive way.

    I'm having problems finding the apology they posted, which was about one half apology and one half excuse, but it seemed pretty sincere. To me it was also clear that whomever was responsible for the alpha err'd kind of hard. I also recall that Zak Smith openly mocked the offended, which is why I am a hundred and twenty-nine percent happy to hear he's no longer involved.


  • Pitcrew

    @jennkryst I hope oWoD stuff doesn't change too much. Don't like it don't buy it. I want me some 90's insanity, please.



  • Also, according to Game Kastle, you'll still get the PDF code with the preorder through them, just like you would ordering through Mophidius. So it's really the best deal so far.

    Re: The Ventrue
    Here's what they said.
    Q: Why is Amelina a pedophile?
    A: She’s not. She has an obsession with young (recently embraced) Kindred and a feeding restriction that forces her to feed from children and young teens.

    Even I admit it was written skeezily, but I don't think it was truly intended that way; a lot of the stuff in the Berlin playtest read like it was translated and concepts didn't transfer super well. The second playtest, Rusted Veins, is MUCH better and plays on a 1e plot thread, being based in Gary Indiana.

    Here's my most recent rundown, after reading BJD and piecing things together.

    -Setting Tidbits From BJD That May Be Referenced-

    • Starts from Revised, rolling back some things.
    • There is a potential Sabbat 4th Civil War, with different factions backing the Seraphim or the Regency, with Lucita a potential Regent being backed by the Inquisition.
    • The Assamite schism happened, and the Camarilla may have inducted the Assamites during the last Justicar election.
    • The Setites are debating petitioning the Camarilla for membership.
    • The Giovanni are actively working on their 'tear down the shroud' plan, with various internal divisions along familial lines like the Pisanob or the Milliner.
    • The Anarchs are still the Anarchs, though some examples from BJD are even more totalitarian than the Camarilla like Libertatia, where you're exiled or killed if you start exceeding the specific vampire population.
    • Dracula is gearing up to kill Kupala, though Beckett apparently has the thing he needs to do so.
    • The Cappadocians are preparing to wage war on the Giovanni. Cappadocius may be free and running around.
    • There is evidence of native Cainites to South America called the Drowned Legacies, implied to have infiltrated the Sabbat and Camarilla in the area posing as regular Cainites.
    • Rasputin confirmed as a vampire.
    • The Ravnos are gearing up for a civil war between Ravana (who may be a Yama King-equivalent, leading armies of demons) and Hazimel (now complete with his eye) and Chandraputa, who may have to find their missing sister Mahabarashti in order to actually combat him.
    • 16th Generation vampires are starting to appear, mostly in the Anarch Free States areas (particularly Los Angeles).
    • The Tremere are unknowingly being lead by Saulot in Tremere's body, in the form of a White Worm. Things hint at a brainwashed Tremere Council of Seven, and the worm being a 'chrysalis' form for some terrible thing Saulot is becoming. There is also a faction of Tremere being gathered by an ex-Regent named Carna, who has a magic book that breaks blood bonds.
    • The minor bloodlines are discussed banding together for self-protection.
    • Malkav (or Malakai, his sister) may have been dug up under Jerusalem by a huge contingent of Malkavians, who drunk from the Antediluvian. No info on the fallout from THAT.
    • Lasombra may have manifested in Castel d'Ombro.
    • Other info implies more Antediluvians are waking up.
    • One of the Second Generation, Enosch/Enoch may be up and about.
    • Most of the Gehenna discussion points back to the 1e-style 'cyclical Gehenna' that happens when the vampiric population becomes too much to sustain, or other mystical impetus to start.

    -Concrete Stuff From Interviews About V5/Mostly Confirmed Material-

    • 5th Edition plans for a 'streamlined core' with things specific to those games being printed in those games. First books are core, Camarilla and Anarch. The Sabbat will get a book down the road.
    • Vampire 5th Edition (or V5) will use Beckett's Jyhad Diary (see above) as a jumping off point for the new metaplot. In BJD, there's a lot of various plot threads, involving Beckett speaking with and interviewing a lot of different vampires for Jyhad knowledge. The overarching plot thread in this book is Beckett looking for/investigatng a Book of Nod-esque tome called the Book of the Grave-War, a text that details how the rising of elders heralds Gehenna. Ties heavily into what's going on with Elders in the game, with the Gehenna Crusade active and the Sabbat actively doing what they were built to do, fight the Antediluvians.
    • V5 draw back the focus more to the street level. There has been a Beckoning of most Elders to the Middle East/ancient sites of the world to fight in the Gehenna War. Some Elders have resisted by gorging themselves on blood, or been killed or diablerized.
    • The Sabbat, some time ago, became aware of the awakening Antediluvians and followed both this beckoning and flood of elders to the Middle East to fight them. The Sabbat have their fingers in many conflicts, using them as cover for their activities in the area. The Gehenna Crusade is what the Sabbat call their activities in the Middle East to destroy the waking Antediluvians. They plan to eliminate the ancients once and for all, and are roughly out of the main stage of the game. The stage of 'elder conflict' has become the War for the Graves of the Antediluvians (there's some fluff talk about how such ancient blood is still potent and useful for vampires, even if it's just 'stored' rather than taken from a living vampire).
    • The vampires are undergoing a Second Inquisition, which is spurred by a govenmental organized purge, even beyond the activities of Project Twilight. It's apparently very brutal and effective. A lot of the Second Inquisition, based on how the plots ran in Berlin at the playtest at the WoD Berlin convention, seem to be spurred by Anarchs fucking up, terror-bombing the Camarilla and drawing attention of the ABC organizations. There was some early-mention of the Technocracy being involved but this has not been referenced since. The pre-alpha scenario from WoD Berlin is explicit in it being a 'turning point' in the Anarchs fucking up by terror-bombing the Camarilla and drawing more government attention than just 'dead bodies walking around'. It was stated at one point that it's a pivotal event for V5's canon (this may have changed, however, but we won't know for a while).
    • In the aftermath of the Second Inquisition starting up, the Camarilla cut loose or, in many cases, eliminated many Anarchs (and anarchs, notice the lower-case, and think about 1e Masquerade!), giving them free reign but demanding they follow the First Tradition, lest the pogorom continue. Through this, the Camarilla has become the 'secret society/old boys club' angle, and you have to earn your way into it. Anarchs have been exiled from the Camarilla, along with Caitiff and thin-bloods. A new emphasis is placed on the masquerade.
    • City hierarchies are often more drastic. In the face of these challenges, Kindred society goes dark — vampire cities become more isolated, and there's a slow reversion to Dark Ages traditions in order to prevent the SI from tracking the vampire's movements.

    -Mechanics, all Subject to Change-

    • 9 standard attributes. A trimmed and pared down skill list. Rather than being divided by Skills/Talents/Knowledges, the skills are now divided by Mental/Social/Physical, which makes it easier to show what attrs to combine with what skills.
    • Some changes to base Disciplines; Celerity, Potence and Fortitude are divided into individual powers, for example. These can be seen in the free Alpha rules, which I won't reiterate here.
    • Still a d10 pool. 6-10 is a success, 1-5 is a failure, 10 provides half of a critical success (two 10s make a critical success). Criticals have some effects on the dice rolls.
    • The Hunger Cycle replaces the Blood Pool. Any powers you activate roll Hunger Dice to determine if they rouse the Beast to hunger or not.
    • Hunger is rolled as part of all dice pools and has the consequences/benefits 'messy criticals' and failures/compulsions where the Beast comes out. Messy criticals where you succeed but you give in to your vampire nature a bit (like, you won a fight but you broke the guy's spine in an unnatural way, or you try to silence a human and just tear out their throat). The Beast comes out through Compulsions, which are the Beast taking control or forcing the character to do something. They come in two flavors: general or Clan. They build on each other in severity. They can be suppressed with the expenditure of Composure.
    • Willpower allows to reroll any or all dice in a dice pool.
    • 2 types of damage: superficial (scrapes, bruises, sprains, minor injuries that heal quickly; very cinematic) and aggravated.
    • Combat is streamlined; no more 4-roll. Standard combat is brawl/melee vs brawl/melee (representing an exchange of blows, so you guys that played LAMUSH will be familiar with this, so the 'defender' can damage the 'attacker' if they roll more success), brawl/melee vs dodge (allows an easier escape attempt) or ranged vs target based on range/cover. Armor changes agg damage to superficial damage. Damage is a flat rating + successes over the target. (This is likely to have changed, as Karim talked a bit about it on facebook once).

    -Book Tidbits-

    • Matthew Dawkins said there would be 7-8 clans in the core, and a couple more each in the Cam and Anarch books. Most people are expecting Cam7 plus Caitiff in the core, then adding Assamites, Setites and Thin Bloods in the others.
    • A discussion topic on the WW forum implies that the book will support primarily high generation Kindred.
    • Mix of photo art and regular art, looks like they're reusing a lot of the unused art from the MMO (such as on the storyteller's screen)


  • Strange they are repeating the unbalanced approach to Potence vs Fortitude.



  • @misadventure
    With fixed damage, it definitely seems a little odd. Like they hewed too far in one direction. It's hard to balance though. They did have a playtest yesterday at PDXcon and confirmed on twitter that the docs would be released in the next week or so. But so far I haven't been able to find anything from anyone who played at the convention.


 

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