Blood of Dragons


  • Pitcrew

    Blood of Dragons is set in the low-magic, medieval-inspired fantasy world of George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire (and HBO's Game of Thrones, though the game is strictly based on book canon). It is suggested that players have some familiarity with the books, though pre-CGed characters are available for those who have not read the novels. The game is the only MUSH operated with the approval of George R.R. Martin, together with whom the game's owners also co-authored The World of Ice and Fire.

    Current/Upcoming: The expanded social status system has been launched, allowing players to gain Influence and Renown for their court positions as well as deeds and misdeeds. Will you choose Fame or Infamy, or does it only matter that your name is known throughout the Seven Kingdoms?

    The game takes place 140 years prior to the start of the first book, "A Game of Thrones". King Baelor I Targaryen, who will be known to history as Baelor the Blessed, sits the Iron Throne, his rule growing ever more erratic as time passes. Dorne, once again an independent realm, is currently led by a Lord Protector, as Prince Marence has not recovered from the attempt to poison him.

    This choice of time period allows players to explore a less defined period in the history of Westeros while still experiencing how past events referenced in the books may have played out. The roleplay is focused on the political and social interactions at the courts of King's Landing and Sunspear, with players taking up characters from various noble households. Players have a choice between CGing a character themselves or taking up a previously played, fully pre-generated role. Choose the latter option and you can often be ready to roleplay within minutes.

    Blood of Dragons is focused on offering high-quality roleplay in a rich, immersive setting with a strong sense of history and continuity. A key ambition of the game is to stay as true as possible to the world-building of George R.R. Martin and in doing so offering an authentic experience of Westeros in the time of the Targaryen kings.

    Address: bod.westeros.org: 3000
    Guest Client: http://client.pennmush.org/guest/bloodofdragons
    Webpage: http://www.westeros.org/BoD/
    Forum: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/forum/16-blood-of-dragons-mush/


  • Pitcrew

    Yes, this is the Nymeria game, to save anyone else the time of going and looking.


  • Pitcrew

    Just so.

    Possibly it's somebody's bag.

    But I wish they'd stop pretending that GRRM forbids all MUSHes but theirs.


  • Pitcrew

    @il-volpe said:

    But I wish they'd stop pretending that GRRM forbids all MUSHes but theirs.

    Our position is and has always been that, based on GRRM's statements to us and others, he is opposed to games being run without permission from him. One example of such a statement can be found in this chat log from Otherspace, where he stated this when informed about a Windhaven MUD:

    "George says, "Hmmpf... I wish they had asked permission, at least, the way Elio and Linda did before beginning their Seven Kingdoms MUSH."

    If someone asks him and obtains permission, then all is well. If they do not, our policy is the same as it is on fan-fiction: we feel it is disrespectful to GRRM's wishes and under no circumstances do we allow it to be discussed or referenced anywhere on Westeros.org.

    As far as we are aware, we remain the only MU* with GRRM's permission. Our FAQ quotes the relevant emails, including one where he notes that when others asked him for permission, he'd direct them to our game as the only authorized one. For those who feel like we do about respecting an author's wishes, we feel it is important information to give when we advertise the game.



  • I'm wondering, @Balerion: can you be more pompous or is this as grandiloquent as it gets from you? I mean don't get me wrong: that was amazingly fustian. (It probably helps that I'm hearing it in the exaggerated "received pronunciation" voice of a 19th century grammarian pedant.) I'm just wondering if you're going all out, balls-to-the-wall with your pomposity or if you've got that little bit extra left over for the guitar solo?


  • Pitcrew

    @Balerion

    Martin has since stated a sane position on fan-fiction: "I am opposed to fan fiction, but people can do whatever they want for their own personal amusement, so long as they don't send it to me."

    A MUSH is either a fiction-engine or a game. If it's a fiction-engine, the above is relevant. If it is a game, well. Mr. Martin is not an idiot, and it would require that he be one for him to have both sold rights to Green Ronin to publish a game (which he did) based on his world yet also think that it's disrespectful to him to play a game based on his world (there's no reliable evidence that he does, and the bit about Windhaven predates any ASOIAF RPGs by twelve years.)

    As for him directing people to your game as the only authorized one, I suspect that if somebody were to come to him and say, "Yes, I know you have authorized 'Blood of Dragons,' but honestly, I do not want to play with that GM, please excuse me for playing some other text-based online RPG based on your world," he'd probably go, "Huh? When the heck did I say you shouldn't? Sod off, I'm busy here." For one, the man's an old D&D player. The idea that people might not want to play the game as Nymeria runs it is unlikely to be something foreign or deplorable to him.

    It is a fact that Blood of Dragons is the only MUSH authorized by George R. R. Martin, but the idea that he condemns others or finds them disrespectful is pretty thin at best, and is so obviously self-serving of BoD that it makes one question just how out-of-context those email quotes might be.


  • Pitcrew

    @il-volpe said:

    @Balerion

    Martin has since stated a sane position on fan-fiction: "I am opposed to fan fiction, but people can do whatever they want for their own personal amusement, so long as they don't send it to me."

    We do not see this as fundamentally different from this statement:

    "Writing something for your private amusement and "sharing it with a few friends" is the way it used to be, and that was one reason why many writers of my generation felt that fan fiction was no big deal.

    But the internet has changed the ground rules. Now the "few friends" can number in the tens of thousands, maybe the hundreds of thousands. Many of comments on Diana's blog made a point of saying how large the fanfic community was. I have no idea what sort of real numbers we are talking about here... but I think there's a vast difference between a few friends and thousands of strangers."

    Yes, he realises that he cannot police the Internet when it comes to unauthorized use of his IP. That does not change his feelings about the matter and his feelings are what matter to us. I find it peculiar that it arouses so much ire that his collaborators on a book wish to respect his feelings (and wish that others would do so, too).

    A MUSH is either a fiction-engine or a game. If it's a fiction-engine, the above is relevant. If it is a game, well. Mr. Martin is not an idiot, and it would require that he be one for him to have both sold rights to Green Ronin to publish a game (which he did) based on his world yet also think that it's disrespectful to him to play a game based on his world (there's no reliable evidence that he does, and the bit about Windhaven predates any ASOIAF RPGs by twelve years.)

    Given that GRRM approved of Blood of Dragons while at the same time clearly disapproving of fan-fiction, he does not consider them to be in the same category. So, I suppose it is fair to say that he considers a MUSH a game, not a fiction-engine. However, by selling the rights to a table-top game, he definitely gave approval for running those sort of games. Thus, it still holds that he is fine with games as long as he has approved them.

    The quote regarding Windhaven does not predate the Wildcards RPG by Steve Jackson Games, another IP of Martin's.

    As for him directing people to your game as the only authorized one, I suspect that if somebody were to come to him and say, "Yes, I know you have authorized 'Blood of Dragons,' but honestly, I do not want to play with that GM, please excuse me for playing some other text-based online RPG based on your world," he'd probably go, "Huh? When the heck did I say you shouldn't? Sod off, I'm busy here." For one, the man's an old D&D player. The idea that people might not want to play the game as Nymeria runs it is unlikely to be something foreign or deplorable to him.

    What you suspect is irrelevant unless you have a quote from GRRM. The quote we supplied makes it clear that while he still had time to answer such queries, he did direct people to our game. As you can see by the first email on our FAQ page, he was very concerned about even approving our game and he wanted to be sure he only approved a game where the owners would respect his work and protect his rights.

    It is a fact that Blood of Dragons is the only MUSH authorized by George R. R. Martin...

    Indeed.


  • Pitcrew

    @Balerion said:

    We do not see this as fundamentally different from this statement:

    "Writing something for your private amusement and "sharing it with a few friends"

    That's funny, because there is indeed a difference between, "I don't like it, but it's whatever, so long as you're only sharing it with a few friends," and "I don't like it, but whatever, so long as you don't show it to me."

    There's nothing in the world a fan-fic writer can do to harm his IP. I understand completely why he doesn't like it. There's got to be something icky about reading your work imitated, especially since fanfiction is so often so very very bad. But in terms of risk to his franchise, there is zero, and in terms of risk to his reputation, well, if somebody writes it and tries to pass it off as Martin's work, I hope he puts the leeches on them.

    Yes, he realises that he cannot police the Internet when it comes to unauthorized use of his IP. That does not change his feelings about the matter and his feelings are what matter to us. I find it peculiar that it arouses so much ire that his collaborators on a book wish to respect his feelings (and wish that others would do so, too).

    The fanfic bit? Oh, you're totally correct not to publish or link to that stuff on Westeros.org, etc. Mr. Martin's earlier statements concerning it are somewhat goofy sometimes, as if he really doesn't get how it can't hurt him. His current stance of 'Don't show it to me!" (which no doubt includes the more important, "And for god's sake, don't pretend I had anything to do with it!") is pretty darn standard, and as you run a major fansite, probably THE major fansite (and it's damn good, and many thanks for it!) it would be pretty crappy to post, link, or discuss fanfic there.

    But the gaming stuff? It arouses ire because it's hostile to the gaming community. BoD appears to use it to attempt to force players who are interested in the world to have no choice but to play BoD, or be shamed, told they're disrespecting a beloved author if they play elsewhere.

    However, by selling the rights to a table-top game, he definitely gave approval for running those sort of games. Thus, it still holds that he is fine with games as long as he has approved them.

    Indeed. But the idea that he approves table-top games, but for MUSHes it's a case-by-case basis is weird. Sure, being consulted is nice when you have the time for it, but saying he condemns those he has not been consulted about, well, it once again implies either idiocy or a failure to understand that a MUSH is a role-playing game, like any other.

    What you suspect is irrelevant unless you have a quote from GRRM. The quote we supplied makes it clear that while he still had time to answer such queries, he did direct people to our game.

    Oh, when other such quotes appear, haha.

    As for yours, it fails to answer the real question: Does he recognize that a MUSH is fundamentally similar to the table-top games which he does approve, and that, consequently, the player-GM relationship is fundamental to the game being worth playing, and if so does he really want to force all MU* gamers to play with you guys or not at all?

    If you want to be disrespectful to GRRM, assume that the answer is yes.

    BoD appears to assume it is yes, to the mild annoyance of other MU players, and in a situation where now the person (Mr. Martin) who could clarify doesn't have time for such silliness.

    As you can see by the first email on our FAQ page, he was very concerned about even approving our game and he wanted to be sure he only approved a game where the owners would respect his work and protect his rights.

    Yep. Some of that clearly had to do with him not being entirely clear on what a MUSH really is. Though at the time, it was also far more relevant -- issues of rights exclusivity were still in play. Now, not at all.



  • Wow, this guy is a serious asshat. Can't imagine playing on a game run by him and some chick that is a legendary level PHB.



  • @Tempest said:

    Wow, this guy is a serious asshat. Can't imagine playing on a game run by him and some chick that is a legendary level PHB.

    They're simply grandiose, predatory, and dedicated to their own sense of importance. I understand why a decision has been made not to post The Infamous Description here, but the whole flack about that shows how crazy these two are. Who knows what they would have done if they hadn't been able to attach themselves to and profit from someone else's creative work--probably started the Swedish equivalent of Westboro Baptist Church.


  • Coder

    I wanna see it, honestly, after hearing about this Legendary Flip Out. Even if just emailed or PMed. Would also love a link to the flip out site.


  • Pitcrew

    Likewise, actually. Millions still want to read that desc and the glorious aftermath.

    Though, actually, from what I'm told by the BoD refugees, Balerion is pretty decent.


  • Politics

    Chill a little people, if people want to play there they can. No need to jump down the guy's throat as soon as he shows his face.


  • Coder

    Found the blog. Wow, you're right.



  • What blog?! I want to knowwwww!


  • Pitcrew

    @il-volpe said:

    @Balerion said:

    But the gaming stuff? It arouses ire because it's hostile to the gaming community. BoD appears to use it to attempt to force players who are interested in the world to have no choice but to play BoD, or be shamed, told they're disrespecting a beloved author if they play elsewhere.

    Regardless of your feelings on the matter, GRRM did make it plain that he does not like people running on-line, fan-run games (such as MU*s) without his permission. Trying to argue that he must have changed his mind since then feels quite self-serving to me, a way of avoiding feeling as if you are doing something of which he disapproves.

    Indeed. But the idea that he approves table-top games, but for MUSHes it's a case-by-case basis is weird. Sure, being consulted is nice when you have the time for it, but saying he condemns those he has not been consulted about, well, it once again implies either idiocy or a failure to understand that a MUSH is a role-playing game, like any other.

    How is that weird? He sold the table-top rights to a specific company. Any issues with how the table-top game is being used would fall to the table-top company to deal with. Since he has not sold the MUSH rights, it is not strange that his approval would remain a case-by-case matter when it comes to such games.

    It may be a game like any other, but he has sold several different licenses for different types of games, so it is not as if all game licenses are just treated as a single entity.

    As for yours, it fails to answer the real question: Does he recognize that a MUSH is fundamentally similar to the table-top games which he does approve, and that, consequently, the player-GM relationship is fundamental to the game being worth playing, and if so does he really want to force all MU* gamers to play with you guys or not at all?

    I am quite sure he recognises that it is similar. However, it is not a matter of him wanting to force anyone to do anything, it is a matter of what he is comfortable with and respecting that. We had to provide quite a lot of reassurances regarding how we would treat his property before he gave his approval. From our interactions with him in this matter, he would like to know who it is who runs a game based on his IP and how they are doing it. Indeed, since you bring up the game licenses he has sold, he initially took a lot of interest in making sure the material stayed as true as possible to his setting. These days, he does not have the time for it, but he has knowledgeable assistants that handle this for him.

    Yep. Some of that clearly had to do with him not being entirely clear on what a MUSH really is. Though at the time, it was also far more relevant -- issues of rights exclusivity were still in play. Now, not at all.

    I am not sure how this comment is relevant all? Rights exclusivity have not been discussed in any way in regards to MU*s, only in regards to other types of games, and again, each type of game is different as far as licenses are concerned.

    The issue being discussed is approval and the fact that, yes, GRRM wants people to obtain approval for him before running a game (that does not fall under any of the licenses he has sold; those games can of course be used in whatever way their licenses allow). Again, trying to pretend otherwise just to not have to feel bad about going against his wishes is self-serving and nothing else.

    As it stands, we are the only authorized MU*, and we feel that is very relevant information to provide for those who care about such things.

    @Rook The desc (as with most of ours) is posted on our personal website: http://www.hippoiathanatoi.com/Virtually/Characters/Entry/Angharad



  • If a particular MU* uses the TT book rules, would you still insist that it needs GRRM's express permission? I'm curious, because you seem to be making a big deal over the difference between a MUSH and a TT, when more often than not, the MU* uses the same rules, books, etc. as the TT.


  • Coder

    Personally, I am not sure why anyone would play on a game where you give up all rights to your character, background and story. That, to me, would be the largest single reason why a resounding 'No' would be the answer. Because, you know, you're forced to agree to this to play on BoD:

    The MUSH and all thematic works associated with it (including, but not limited to, character backgrounds and logs), whether found on the official MUSH website or elsewhere, should be considered derivative works and as such are also allowed solely through Mr. Martin’s expressed permission and only in conjunction with Blood of Dragons MUSH.

    All players and Staff who create anything for public use on the game (e.g., building, code, and texts such as descriptions, tutorials or newsfiles) retain copyright of these creations but give the Admin a non-revocable, non-exclusive and non-transferable license for unlimited use of said creations. In the case of contributions that are intrinsically related to the theme and setting, the Admin are granted a non-revocable, non-transferable and exclusive license to make unlimited use of them.



  • From what I've gathered from previous threads about this hot mess of a game... it essentially means that Nymeria wants to have sole and complete ownership of everything that happens in and on the game so that she can turn around and use it for her collaborations with GRRM and claim it all as her personal intellectual property. Basically, so she can take your character and claim all credit for it.



  • I was not going to comment here because @Coin had a good point about speaking ill about games on an add thread.

    A few years ago a friend asked me to come play on BLood of Dragons. I read WORA and heard from multiple friends who don't WORA say it's not the most enjoyable of games. I was like 'I've heard that before. Sometimes perceptions are wrong. My friend is on there to. I'll give it a shot, it can't be as bad as they say.' because I /try/ to give everything the benefit of the doubt.

    So, I chatted with a staffer sort (forget who) worked out a fun angle that also allowed me to play with my friend (can't remember what now). I had misgivings about applying to a mu* via /email/ before I could even get a bit but I was like 'Everyone has their thing. I'll roll with it. Might not be as weird as it seems to me.' So I applied and worked on my bit. Finished it only to ave to do /another/ app process. And I was like 'Okay. I suppose it makes sense. Things might have diverted from what I originally had sent in and they want to be sure it still meshes and what not.' The app got denied 3 or 4 times, at least. I am all for making sure people are on theme but that takes it too far.

    I like to think my apps aren't /awful/, maybe not GREAT but not /awful/. I've been on some pretty strict to theme games (Firan being one of the biggest ones) but just getting ONTO a game to play shouldn't be such a massive chore.


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