Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game



  • @Ominous said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    @Roz

    Yeah, but then you have to code your own resolution mechanics, bringing us back to original problem.

    I thought most of the Superhero games don't have resolution mechanics.



  • Yeah comic games are almost always based on traits and consent, the only ones with stats I can remember off the top of my head were like Mutants & Masterminds or of you go back forever Aberrant


  • Pitcrew

    @Prototart said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    Yeah comic games are almost always based on traits and consent, the only ones with stats I can remember off the top of my head were like Mutants & Masterminds or of you go back forever Aberrant

    I would kind of like to see a trait-based superhero game once before I die, only because I've been playing superhero MUSHes for three years now and have yet to see more than three players write scenes in which their character has to struggle to overcome any obstacle. That's probably not relevant to the game you're planning, though. It's just a thought.


  • Pitcrew

    @Groth

    I do not play comic book based RPGs, so I couldn't say.


  • Pitcrew

    Champions MUSH is still going, switching from 5th to 6th Edition. 15-20 players average on peak times. That's the only stats super game I can think of off hand that's still up.



  • @Prototart said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    gosh i bet it would be a good time for people who aren’t weirdo incel sexpest freaks nor beep-book broken robots with wildly inconsistent standards and a frothing disdain for female characters to make a comic game

    I've thought about it, though I know it's not realistic time wise right now for me with myself fully committed to my current projects. When designing systems I still often ask myself how well it would work on a superheroes game, because I really miss the genre.

    I do agree with others that an Ares game is a great idea- it was designed to be painless, and for the very much full consent type systems, you could probably at least create a sandbox safe from creeps.



  • In terms of actual dice systems it’s been shown you can pull off a popular Mutants & Masterminds place with an original universe, the only problem that game ever had (other than some shitty, gross players it inexplicably tolerated, like the fat scuba dude who played a fairy and the whatever zombie thing I guess who was basically randomnaziposts.txt) was that the - I think - coder was a twitchy weirdo prone to outbursts.

    I’ll always love Aberrant, but it’s weird and not balanced well at all and I’m pretty sure it would catch fire if you tried to make an actual superhero game with it, like, that entire system is built around the Aberrant world. Plus I totally acknowledge that a ton of my love for it is probably rooted in having first read it when I was like 13

    (Also fatefan & me are going to at least try to do a Hickman-inspired place)



  • My $.02

    My opinion is that the "trait" based Super games since about '98 have collected a crowd. That crowd has bio-massed from trait game to trait game to trait game, and over time has collected repeat runs of X stories, Y romances, and Z habits.

    As a GM, I find that to break up bad habits and do something new, the existence of using the same system actually supports repeats of stuff(1). Same system? Same game design? It's very easy to slip back into that skin and try to recreate that old experience you've been chasing that hasnt been as good as it was in 2004.

    Historically, non-trait Super games are only popular with players who like system, crunch, or are specifically allegiant to M&M or Champions. Trait-game fans avoid these like the plague, but trait-game fans are actually the majority because it's all attemptedly consent-based and doesnt use rolls so you can just argue everything out.

    tl;dr I will always promote getting away from trait games and going with a system to help enforce people try new things with new mechanics and new approaches because it'll help try to prevent a return to 15+ years of trait games shenanigans.

    Also: Be prepared to boot people for behavior. Watchdog that stuff.

    ETA(1): Across the years I've heard many times of players who have go-to Marvel/DC characters storing the trait writeups for them on their PC. So when MarvelMaelMultiVerseCrisisJumpers opens next week, they go "These are my 4 go-to characters and I've played them 2-3 times each over the last 10 years". When they app, they go to their logs, pluck out the trait-based application they used for some game in 2014 and copy/paste it into new game.


  • Pitcrew

    @Runescryer Where would I find this Champions MUSH? I have played Champions since the 1st edition boxed set and HERO is like my favorite system of all time. I think 4th ed is the best, personally, but am willing to give a 5th-6th ed MU a shot...



  • @Ghost What style of RP, genre, game system preference, etc hasn't "collected a crowd," exactly? You're not wrong about the trait people, but I'd argue the "heroes with dice" crowd is an equally identifiable one (down to a couple MSB handles known for repeatedly making short-lived games). And at least by game size metric, it's even smaller. In the end, heroes, WoD, L&L, you're going to get familiar faces whatever you do. So in the end just make the game you want.

    Personally, even as someone who is generally very pro-dice (and believes people who pull out the lame 'role-play not roll-play' sneering should be shot into the sun), I have major doubts about a full power-spectrum diced superhero game in MU format. While there's plenty of valid criticism of purely consent-based play (people rarely choosing failure, etc), I am hardly enthusiastic about playing with the type of person who wants to play a statted version of Superman. I have been on some of these games in the early stages and dice + hero nonsense seems to draw out the worst of the dick waving and negative fan behaviors people associate with the genre (including things like 'the female characters should have lower power levels than their male counterparts' said with total lack of irony).

    I'd be more interested if a game took a more focused, power-leveled approach. I recall the Flashpoint game that was around a couple years ago, which was run on WoD dice and had that kind of a power curve, of basic stat range + a few dots of powers and no one getting any special treatment to start, regardless if they were Generic Amazonian #412 or Wonder Woman. Neat idea, and would like to see more efforts like that.



  • @bored Right. I think it's worth meditating over. Clearly there are different approaches to try that havent been tried yet. I dont personally think theres any one option that will make everyone happy, right on down to it not being a trait-game. I have my preferences, as well. Some have tried WoD, FS3, M&M. Champions, home-brewed, MSHRPG(Weiss).

    It starts to get more complicated the more you consider 1 system being better in a TT format vs MU


  • Pitcrew



  • didn’t Moritz repeatedly try to do, like, traits WITH some ancient dice system from the 80s?



  • @Prototart I tried, I failed. There are only a few die-hard Marvel Super Heroes Role Playing Game (MSHRPG) people in the MU world. In retrospect; Champions/HERO system is too hard for my brain.



  • I bet you could do a MSHRPG/FASERIP game. I've often thought about doing an X-Men game using it. I think it'd be best to pre-sheet all the FCs(or a good number of them) though and just let people pick them up and play(maybe with a goals section or something so you know their intentions with the character).

    That said, some comic book game players are oddly resistant to anything that isn't basic skills/powers/advantages/flaws traits.


  • Pitcrew

    @Moritz Mutants & Masterminds 3e is a less math-intensive system. Easier combat as well.



  • @Runescryer

    Out of curiosity, is there any reason why we don't just code a MU* to do all the "heavy lifting" for players when it comes to tabletop games that are notoriously crunchy?



  • I did with DC Heroes on a game a few years ago and it went over quite well. I think the good thing about a MUSH, especially a comic MUSH, is that you can strip out most of the crunch anyway. Most comic games just want something to make evaluating a character easy, not necessarily a system for deciding outcomes. So, in many cases, you can strip out the crunch of character generation and just let players eyeball their character sheet. This wouldn't work for M&M(but I think M&M wouldn't work for a number of other reasons as well) but for DCH it worked really well.

    On the MUSH I had there was a +action command so players didn't have to understand the chart system of DCH at all. Players just used +action ##/## and it told them where to go from there. It worked so well I know of at least 2 other games that cribbed the system.

    Were I to do a game in the future using DCH I'd probably eliminate that entirely as well and literally just use character sheets to replace the common skills/abilities/advantages/flaws system.


  • Pitcrew

    @Wizz Well, if I actually knew how to code (or knew a coder that's available), I'd have probably gotten that kind of game going. I'm a decent 'idea guy', but not much use when it comes to mechanics beyond basic grid design and room descriptions. And I'm more than happy to put in design work and fund a MU, I just haven't had much response when I advertise that I'm trying again.



  • I don't think FASERIP is overly crunchy, it doesn't seem far off from M&M 3E from what I see (haven't played the latter). Its just instead of 1-10 stats, its 1-100?

    FASERIP also has this longevity in it, where a lot of material published included a lot of the characters including obscure ones. Such that most chars in the marvel-verse have a stat somewhere. Like @ZombieGenesis mentioned, its easy to just have roster of tons of chars all stat'ed and ready to play. I do believe @Moritz has done this?

    I'd be good with FASERIP but maybe smaller sphere, not just every thing open as that creates a bit of division; having 20 players basically in 20 different groups that don't really interact so much.


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