Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game


  • Pitcrew

    @reversed I really don't get the obsession players on MUSHes have with maintaining continuity between players. Do they not realize that basically every time a new writer takes over a comic, the character is unrecognizable to the last team's?



  • @GreenFlashlight said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    @reversed I really don't get the obsession players on MUSHes have with maintaining continuity between players. Do they not realize that basically every time a new writer takes over a comic, the character is unrecognizable to the last team's?

    I think that things like the Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe have trained a Marvel Zombie's brain to accept all of these contradictions as being part of a greater meta-story. I also think that people playing on MUSHes are generally more personally invested in the roleplay that they've done than they are in a story they're consuming but have no real control over. I agree that it's a silly thing that doesn't make much sense when juxtaposed, but I also feel that way about pretty much everything to do with superheroes and comic books.



  • I agree with all of the above, but I don't think of it as stuff that has to prevent games from working. Like most stuff, there's a lot of ingrained lazy practices.

    For instance, I don't think there's any problem with a subsequent WW player being asked to accept something like that being part of her character's continuity, as this is common in comics. The issue in that hypothetical is that WW was put back on roster in the middle of the plot without staff intervention to make sure there were appropriate end points to said story arc. Did Hulk expect to get to arrest WW and put her in jail forever? (if so, that's poorly managed expectations during plot approval). Did they want a big trial scene? If there was an ending but WW player just flaked, could staff NPC her for a month to finish up the plot and get it back to a reset point? Etc.

    On a roster game, staff are the stewards of the characters, and they need to do the necessary upkeep to keep them playable and current.



  • @bored I agree with all of this.

    I think a well run and properly stewarded game has as much chance of being successful (in any area: login count, player experience, storytelling potential, pick one, pick 'em all) as... well, as a well run and properly stewarded game.

    I think the difficulty in this particular micro genre will be twofold: retraining existing players to let go of what they've accepted as "the way to do superhero games" with its bowdlerized 'the customer is always right, except for when it involves any two customers having an issue with one another' principle; and re-attracting players for whom the corpse on the living room floor finally got too smelly and vulture-pecked to ignore.

    If you started a game just like what you've been detailing, @bored, I think it would stand a chance of being successful if enough people trusted it to actually accomplish the paradigm shift that it would inherently promise. But in all likelihood, as a player I'd stay away until I heard enough from other players to convince me that it wouldn't be another game where I'd apply for a member of the Serpent Society, RP getting some roommates and jokes about crossfit and fake boobs, and then feel like there were no mountains left to climb.


  • Admin

    @Runescryer said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    I think the former issue, hyper-focus on relationships, is more of a problem in a supers game than on, say, a WoD/CoD game. In a Vampire game, for example, there's a great importance on building relationships (not necessarily TS) due to the political and intrigue aspect of the theme. The thematic nature of superheroes boils down to 'identify the threat, punch threat in face repeatedly until threat is ended', in various flavors. With players engaging in relationship RP in place of action, it provides more opportunties for creeper behavior to establish.

    A couple of notes on this.

    For starters overly emphasizing relationship RP tends to be a symptom of not much else happening (or nothing that's engaging). Meeting cute then falling in love or boinking in a private room is an easy route to take even when the rest of the game is dormant or cliquish.

    Also there's such a thing as taking the path of least resistance. Trying to fit into something complicated and thematic, to engage in politics and the such can make people feel they may land into hot waters, both IC and OOC. The high stakes, disliking the idea of confrontations, etc can make folks feel insecure. On the other hand romantic RP tends to provide fun at a low cost; the return on investment, if you will, is pretty decent.

    There is this expectation that if only people weren't in private rooms (presumably) boinking they would be Out There producing Meaningful RP yet that's not necessarily true. Many are just chatting, idling, etc.

    On top of that... it's what they want to play. I get that as the player of Batman (or a Sheriff in a WoD game) I could perhaps produce different kinds of RP but I wouldn't care to be shoehorned into only doing that. If I decide to spend a few hours playing in private with a friend and someone threatens to ban me because 'it's unthematic' then frankly... they might as well, since I'd be out the door on my own.

    Just some thoughts.


  • Pitcrew

    I'm a player and only a player, who wants nothing to do with staffing because it's a thankless and messy business. They fired and banned Claremont, and hired a couple of new staffers. A lot of people there were not entirely happy with how things were handled, I wasn't entirely happy myself and think it could have been handled better but it was a messy, complicated matter. I'm sure many staff who remained feel the same way. I personally had more fun on UH than HAM but to each their own I suppose. I'm not here to spew hatred or point fingers or hold grudges, just making observations. I had a few friends who left and would be happy to see them return but guess it's up to them.


  • Pitcrew

    @Icerose As someone wholly uninvolved with UH aside from seeing the pages upon pages of issues, you are really coming across as someone rolling in just to tell everyone here that they're overreacting and to just chill out. Focusing on "pointing fingers" and "holding grudges" just make it sound like you think the problems were people arguing against unethical behavior rather than those engaging in the unethical behavior.


  • Pitcrew

    @Roz I think there was a bit of both, but you're right, apologies could probably be made. Any way, I've already said my peace. It was just sad to see some of my friends quit and yeah, I suppose I don't know the whole story.


  • Pitcrew

    @Icerose Maybe say that, then? If that was the point of your original post, it was kind of buried amid a sense of "if the game fails it's because you people can't let go of a grudge."

    Or just reach out to your friends directly and tell them about the shifts in staff if you're trying to lure people back.


  • Pitcrew

    @Icerose said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    apologies could probably be made

    lol, really? For the sorts of shit that's been talked about? "apologies could probably be made".

    I am going to go with "yikes" on that one, Bill.


  • Pitcrew

    @Roz maybe I expressed myself wrong. It was more of a hoping not to scare new players away too, and honestly I heard a completely different story than what I keep hearing on here. And for the record, I have scened with some of WW's alts in the past and found her to be a pleasant and fun player. And I have got to know many of the staff and come to realize they are also very pleasant people just trying to do their job and mediate both sides, and I'm also really neutral on both ends and really I just wanted all the hate to stop and some diplomacy and a fresh start. I appreciate your neutral views and diplomatic input but I'm feeling a lot of aggression from others so I'm just going to end it here.



  • @Icerose Lessons learned.

    When MSB dubs a game "toxic" to the point of having its own thread, people who come in to say good things about the game have to use very careful language or else it blows up in their face. Attempts to promote the game and/or anything that appears like standing up for staff is a razor's edge. People are always on the lookout for "agent provocateur propaganda/misinformation on behalf of toxic staffers"

    IIRC the only times it doesn't seem to backfire is the "Eh I've been there and am having fun, not having any issues" post. I think the only thing the game can do now is just continue without issues reported for X amount of time.


  • Pitcrew

    @Ghost I appreciate that, thank you.



  • @Icerose said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    @Ghost I appreciate that, thank you.

    Should probably add...I didn't mean to voice that like a mansplaining or a "lol fool" thing. I respect you trying. Hope you have fun on the game. I just kinda hate to see someone try to do something positive and get shoved at for it.


  • Admin

    @Icerose said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    @Roz maybe I expressed myself wrong. It was more of a hoping not to scare new players away too, and honestly I heard a completely different story than what I keep hearing on here. And for the record, I have scened with some of WW's alts in the past and found her to be a pleasant and fun player.

    I don't know anything about this game. I've never played there, so I've no real opinion of it or its staff. But your comment caught my eye so I wanted to say something about that.

    People are often surprised by this but just because someone else has treated them with respect, or was fair and altogether reasonable with them, that doesn't mean others are not getting an entirely different deal.

    One of the... let's say least celebrated folks in our extended community was like that. Those who weren't 'causing trouble' had nothing but good things to say; they were part of plots, had nice conversations together, and so on. But those who somehow conflicted with that person's goals or who wanted something she wanted as well... it was an eye-opening experience.

    In other words: Please do not assume what you are seeing is what everyone is.

    So how can you tell the difference? Well, some issues can be summed up as he-said-she-said. Others can't be summed up as they're more of a he-said-she-said-she-said-she-said-she-said-she-said conversation that spans 500+ posts on a forum containing criticism folks are afraid to voice in their own game.

    I hope you get my point.


  • Pitcrew

    @Arkandel that's a good point, I'm literally just going by what was publicly posted on the mu* which was vastly different from what was told on here, (plus talking to players on both sides of of the fence without a clear answer). I guess therein lies my frustration. Believe me I've been on both sides of the fence. And I'm sure both sides have a bit of bias so who knows what the truth is? At the end of the day I guess everyone wants to move on. I apologize for erroneously believing the title, 'how can we fix UH?' Literally meant how can we fix UH? But no one can seem to agree on what the truth is so it seems pointless. Oh well. Peace out.



  • @Arkandel said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    In other words: Please do not assume what you are seeing is what everyone is.

    Eh. Handwobble. That's kind of a two-way street.

    In a community where so-and-so is literally a sociopath and I swear everything they're telling you about me is a lie so please dont TS them or I will LEGIT DIE happens every 22 seconds, the only TRUE way to judge a situation is from your own point of view. With so many bald-faced mutant liars in the community, it's wholly possible that someone could have a perfectly mature and copacetic relationship with this season's worst person ever. Likewise, it's wholly possible that someone could have the worst experience ever with some of the most beloved MSB influencers.

    Is a large number of people with similar stories a potential indicator? Sure. In some cases its maybe a couple first hand stories and 300 people judging whether or not their third-hand experience and reputational (jesus...) weight believes the story. Still could be any percentage of bullshit or embellishment, even if the stories are 85% accurate. UH had a lot of logs posted of bullshit and those BB anti-propaganda Baghdad Bob posts were sus enough that I would have thrown them out of the Among Us airlock.

    Anyway, icerose didnt mention a lot of specifics about WHO they were having a normalesque experience with, and it's entirely possible there are people playing in UH that are normal, rational people. Is it possible that some people are having a good time and being copacetic on the game despite the general community having lined the place in Chernobyl tape? Absolutely.



  • @Icerose

    The ways to fix it were there.
    Real apologies and a real effort to change the problem. That's the reason for the second half of the title.

    Let me put it this way:

    Say you go to a restaurant and get food poisoning. You report it to the restaurant but the person you talk to just insults you and accuses you of lying to get free shit. All you wanted was an apology and a promise that they'd look into what happened (maybe your meal comped), but instead you get treated like you're making shit up just to make them look bad.

    So you stop going to that restaurant (obvs). You hear similar stories from other people.

    Months later, your buddy invites you out to eat at said restaurant. You explain hey, uh, no thanks, can we go somewhere else? He's all no no, dude, the guy who yelled at you doesn't work there anymore.

    You ask if he was fired or what happened. Your buddy says it was a difference of opinion sort of thing just a couple days ago. So you turn it down because: that doesn't sound like a firing over how the guy treated you or others with food poisoning complaints nor does it address the issues with the food handling. Your buddy is all 'jeez, I've never had food poisoning, I just want to eat out somewhere'

    Then to make matters worse, the restaurant releases a statement that goes 'We've had numerous reports of food poisoning and we just want to say that we have always been committed to being a place people can enjoy a good meal and company. We cannot confirm or deny these reports and we are appalled at the libel that's been spread about our fine establishment. Know that we are, as always, committed to the finest in food.'

    And your buddy points to it and goes see! They apologized and their food is fine! And you're looking at it like bruh are we reading the same thing

    This is how people feel about UH. And it may well be how your friends feel. Just because the place didn't give you food poisoning and just because you didn't get treated like shit by a server doesn't mean they didn't and it absolutely doesn't mean they should just wave it off and move on.

    'Mistakes were made on both sides' is not an apology. But it's the only one UH has ever given... while also frequently insulting their naysayers and praising the staff that caused the issue in the first place.

    Lastly: sometimes people just never want to go back to a place that upset them. It's normal. It's human nature. It's not them being nasty terrible bad people. I had a really horrible experience with a boss when I worked at Party City two decades ago. I don't even live in the same half of the country anymore and I still won't go to a Party City because ugh.



  • @Auspice All good points there. I dont think I've ever returned to a MU (or many other places) where I've come to have a shitty experience. The ones I did return to were because the shitty experience was with a player. When said shitty experience was with staff? That game was dead to me.

    Truth is, even if 1 bad staffer thrived for months upon months gets banned, the staff in place that allowed (arguably) bad staffer to thrive remain. That's why so many games steal codebases and start other games with different staff; because GOOD GAME/BAD STAFF.

    In my experience if dozens of players complain about a staffer, but staff are all friends, then when that ONE staffer gets let go it's more of a political move (feed the mutants) than it is due to the core values and beliefs of the rest of the staff who didnt do much about the problem/complaints for months.

    In UH's case, there seemed to be some staff backing up and covering Claremont when he came after accusers, so a lot of people are under the opinion that removing Claremont was just treating a symptom.



  • @Ghost said in Fixing United Heroes- Too bad we cannot talk about it on the game:

    In UH's case, there seemed to be some staff backing up and covering Claremont when he came after accusers, so a lot of people are under the opinion that removing Claremont was just treating a symptom.

    And it wasn't just Claremont, either, remember.

    Until she got the same sort of treatment, Ruby was often reported as being a source of problems. Levitz (I think it was?) had that whole 'I'm ex-military and a cop and how dare you not treat me with respect' spiel that made pretty much every vet and cop I know cringe.

    It wasn't just one Staffer, it was a number. And 100% yes on the point of: when one bad Staffer (esp. one as bad as Claremont) is kept around and defended by Staff, the rest of Staff is a problem, too. Because they're enabling the situation. And when the person does leave, you have it right: it looks like a political move.

    People aren't likely to go back, no. But people are still hurt and upset because they've never gotten the apologies they deserve and instead have gotten the garbage non-pologies. And here's the thing re: he-said-she-said and similar situations that @Ghost and @Arkandel referenced: those non-pologies are public. They were out there for everyone to see. There's no rumor mill or bad reputations coloring those.


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