The log forgery can be technologically detected with the right server side support. I have seen people respond with horror about the idea of a server keeping all messages ever sent, but there is another option. If the server automatically keeps crypto (sha256 for example) hashes of all messages sent/received, then any log submitted as evidence would be trustworthy if its hash matches a corresponding hash in those server side records. Obviously bad admins with access to the hash logs can defeat this, but that just goes back to bad staff makes for terrible games.
I agree 100%. I think it would be worthwhile to better explore ways to be trustworthy to players, for this sort of discussion. Like, I think anonymous complaints are a trap for everyone involved with disastrous long-term negative repercussions on the health of any game. It ultimately erodes the trust between staff and players, rather than helping. I can go down that rabbit hole in explaining if people want me to, but what it boils down to is that anon complaints are disappearing into the ether; if the person is anything but very publicly banned, complaints become meaningless because there's no conversation, no way to get further information, no explanation, no dialogue, no nothing. Complain, then pray. It gets worse from there.
If the problem in this case we are trying to solve is people being concerned about other people knowing it was them that complained, I think better would be to say: we have a rule on this game that staff does not discuss complaints outside of X and Y situations, with Z people. Anyone who breaks this rule, in any circumstance, will be removed from staff.
And then you follow through.
So really, I think it behooves all of us to step back and look at the actual problem that needs to be solved, and how we (as staff) can make ourselves trustworthy for our players in that way (not that I'm staffing any more, but the theoretical is fun). What can we do to say: you can trust me to do the right thing in this type of situation? What promises CAN be made?
@Sunny said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
but what it boils down to is that anon complaints are disappearing into the ether; if the person is anything but very publicly banned, complaints become meaningless because there's no conversation, no way to get further information, no explanation, no dialogue, no nothing
Not necessarily, but your overarching point is still good.
He/Him
It is a very deep rabbit hole, please do not make me go down it.
Also, I realize I wasn't being clear about part of what I was saying and I am trying so hard to stop ETAing every goddamned post I make because 2 minutes later I thought of something:
When I say 'the actual problem' I am not referring to a specific problem; the statement is a general one. In this example, I am discussing the desire of players to not be outed to the people they are complaining about -- that is the actual problem in this scenario, but the logic I'm advocating is for more general problem solving.
@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
It would still be up to staff to investigate the accusations.
How, though?
I can say from experience that it's hard enough establishing the veracity of non-anonymous complaints. I can't even imagine how you would respond to "Bob is being creepy" in a constructive fashion without logs or details.
The biggest issue, as @Wretched alluded to, is that most folks don't keep logs of this stuff. I've tried to combat this in Ares by creating tools to help players report things. It's really no different than keeping and submitting a log, except that it comes from within the game itself so there's no potential for "He faked it!" accusations. (It doesn't log everything; it's selective and enacted by the person being harassed.)
@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
I can't even imagine how you would respond to "Bob is being creepy" in a constructive fashion without logs or details.
You... ask for more information.
He/Him
@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
I can't even imagine how you would respond to "Bob is being creepy" in a constructive fashion without logs or details.
You... ask for more information.
How do you do that if the complaint is anonymous, man?
@Tinuviel From whom? If the reports are anonymous, who are you going to ask?
@Sunny said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
How do you do that if the complaint is anonymous, man?
@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@Tinuviel From whom? If the reports are anonymous, who are you going to ask?
Have neither of you ever used a job system before? It's an anonymous job, not a shout into the void.
He/Him
An anonymous job is not an anonymous complaint. We were discussing the latter, not the former.
@Sunny said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
An anonymous job is not an anonymous complaint. We were discussing the latter, not the former.
How else are you going to submit a complaint?
He/Him
@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@Sunny said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
An anonymous job is not an anonymous complaint. We were discussing the latter, not the former.
How else are you going to submit a complaint?
That code isn't anonymous. You can mask it from the interface, but if you have a wizbit it takes two seconds to find the job and figure out who wrote it. The code doesn't work like that.
@Sunny said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
if you have a wizbit it takes two seconds to find the job and figure out who wrote it
If you have people with wizbits doing that shit, you've got a lot more problems.
Besides, it's more for player peace of mind than actual security.
He/Him
@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@Sunny said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
if you have a wizbit it takes two seconds to find the job and figure out who wrote it
If you have people with wizbits doing that shit, you've got a lot more problems.
Besides, it's more for player peace of mind than actual security.
Are you just not reading what other people are writing fully, or...?
@Sunny said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@Sunny said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
if you have a wizbit it takes two seconds to find the job and figure out who wrote it
If you have people with wizbits doing that shit, you've got a lot more problems.
Besides, it's more for player peace of mind than actual security.
Are you just not reading what other people are writing fully, or...?
You were responding to something I said before the rest of the conversation started.
@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
Have neither of you ever used a job system before? It's an anonymous job, not a shout into the void.
I've written three different job systems and none of them have included any kind of "anonymous" job because (as Sunny also pointed out), you can't keep it anonymous from the wizards. I guess you're talking about a game where there are non-wiz staff handling complaints and players aren't worried about the wizards somehow accessing the "anonymous" data, but I've never seen such a setup in decades of MUSHing.
Even if the job itself were anonymous, I have no clue how you'd keep all the details anonymous. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure things out once you start including specific conversations.
I thought about naming and shaming on this thread — started typing out a response, deleted it — but because I don't think most parties involved in this particular debacle did anything wrong, I don't feel comfortable doing so.
A while ago I joined a game run by some people for whom I have the greatest respect; they're good people. Feminists, caring staffers, people whom I have no doubt are invested in the idea of creating a positive atmosphere on their game. They had a public policy of no tolerance for creepers, and openly invited people to come forward about any incidents that might occur on their game.
An incident did occur, to me, and I did not come forward. Or rather, a series of incidents centred around a specific individual who kept making me very uncomfortable.
When I joined their game, I did so with the sense that I was a guest and a relative nobody. They didn't know me, and I didn't know almost anyone playing on this game either. I got the sense, however, that everyone else was part of a tight-knit community of friends, including people who know each other IRL, and so on. The public channels and OOC lounge were constantly filled with people clamouring for each other's attention, reminiscing on the good times they had playing other games, sharing in-jokes, and so on.
So when someone started harassing me in pages, to the point of inducing severe mental health related discomfort, to the point of driving the one friend I joined this game with out (he did it to her too), to the point of compelling me to avoid his character at all costs, I felt like I was faced with two choices:
I tried ignoring this player, but the behaviour persisted. I politely told him, in private, that I have mental health issues that he's exacerbating, and that for this reason I would prefer to limit contact with him, or else postpone our conversation to a later date, when I'm feeling a bit better and I'm better equipped to handle it. He not only wouldn't accept me putting up boundaries, but became increasingly aggressive in his desire to push them, and then came to MSB to complain about an anonymous someone (I saw his posts and knew he meant me) who was frustrating him through her refusal to communicate with him and resolve certain issues. These issues, to me, seemed to largely revolve around me not giving him enough attention.
In case someone can infer from this story who/where I'm referring to, I do want to say for the record that the harassment was not sexual in nature. I think this guy is an arsehole, but I'm not looking to accuse him of more than he deserves. He did want a romantic relationship with my character, and then became ICly & OOCly passive aggressive towards both me and the dude my character ended up hooking up with when he realised that wasn't happening, but that was it. I do think that he's emotionally abusive, manipulative, paranoid and narcissistic. He would regularly assume the worst of minor inactions and then go on the aggressive because of it. ('You didn't respond to my page or react to my joke on the channel within 5 minutes, therefore xyz'.)
I half regret that I didn't complain about him but at the same time ... I'd like to hear from staffers here. Someone you don't know joins your game and says 'your BFF here is making me extremely uncomfortable and wilfully ignoring the fact I've told him he's exacerbating my mental health issues, along with my polite requests to terminate our communications'. Whom do you believe? I didn't want to be a trouble-maker. I wanted to come to this game where no one really knows me, stay anonymous, have fun, no drama, and not rock the boat.
I upvoted @mietze's post quoted in the OP because holy crap do I know what you're talking about, especially in that first paragraph. So yeah — anyone who thinks creepy stuff only happens on games that don't have anti-creepy stuff policies, you are very wrong.
At a later date, staff from this game approached me via private message on MSB and asked if I would be interested in joining another game of theirs. My initial answer was hell yes, I would, I think you're great. But I stopped to ask, 'Does your friend x still play there?' The answer was yes. So I said 'no thanks, in that case', and left it at that.
I don't know that I have constructive advice on what should be done. The obvious is, 'You should have told staff, Kestrel.' But when there's a tight-knit circle of friends, most of whom are wonderful and one of whom is awful, it can be pretty intimidating to consider the risk of ruining their mojo by letting the others know that one of them isn't real sweet to individuals outside that circle.
@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
I guess you're talking about a game where there are non-wiz staff handling complaints and players aren't worried about the wizards somehow accessing the "anonymous" data, but I've never seen such a setup in decades of MUSHing.
No, as I said, it was for peace of mind over actual security. Since the initial comment was exceptionally specific in its discussion solely about handling complaints, not about staff discipline.
If someone with wizard privs and authority is corrupt, you're done until they're gone. So everything else is irrelevant.
@Kestrel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
He would regularly assume the worst of minor inactions and then go on the aggressive because of it. ('You didn't respond to my page or react to my joke on the channel within 5 minutes, therefore xyz'.)
So a lot of what you wrote resonated with me but this line alone just brought back memories... of myself. Before i was aware of my own issues (anxiety, self esteem, depression, etc) I have totally flipped out on people for... little things, and in a similar way. Especially if it was with someone who's Rp i was invested in for what reason or another. (OMG i wanted to RP with you today but i see you are already in a scenes with someone else... DO YOU HATE ME?! cringe) I dont know if i was ever this bad, but it rang some bells, and I genuinely feel shitty for how unaware/cringy I was. Not to defend this person, but that struck home.
I have a few people on my own list that i would be SUUUPER wary about joining a game they were on, so i feel ya.
And you are correct, the presence of anti creepoing policy does not stop creepers. I feel that instead the policies should be there as an aid and starting point for those that are creeped upon, rather than strictly to warn people. A 'Here is what you do if someone is harassing you oocly/trying to force you into rp you dont want/etc. Here is how we can help, and here is how you can help us help you.
Does that sound right? Or at least as a start?
Oh. Since a lot of people don't know how to do the thing with @locks, making an OOC communication blockery command. So '+ignore Wretched' would stop me seeing his pages, getting his @mails, seeing his channel messages, and any OOC comments in the room I'm in. (Or any comments if we're both in the OOC Lounge).
@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@Sunny said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
An anonymous job is not an anonymous complaint. We were discussing the latter, not the former.
How else are you going to submit a complaint?
That code isn't anonymous. You can mask it from the interface, but if you have a wizbit it takes two seconds to find the job and figure out who wrote it. The code doesn't work like that.
