7th Sea 2nd Edition



  • Hey guys!

    I've been wondering if any of you got the chance to read the 7th Sea preview yet, the system looks much simpler than the original version, unfortunately John Wick has chosen to relinquish the R&K system for a more "WoD" approach. The magic system has also been reworked and everything seems like it would be much easier to implement in a MU* game.

    Also, the Sarmatia Commonwealth will certainly please some The Witcher fans.


  • Coder

    Not only have I read it, but I tried to create a roller for it. Hah, no.

    I do have the second full rule book beta sitting around, but decided to watch Archer instead. Looking forward to it.


  • Pitcrew

    I definitely prefer first edition to second mechanically. the roll and keep systems took some effort to get used to and was slow at times especially when learning the ropes or teaching it to someone new, but it felt more game then the current system does.
    Granted I am not a big fan of the trend towards narrative mechanics which I think the second edition moves towards. Besides Fate I don't think there is a narrative system I like, most hit a space where the mechanics still slow things down too much without being engaging as a game. The exception to this in my opinion being Fate and the old Over the Edge system.
    I love the setting of both editions but if I ever ran a game I would likely still use first edition rules for it.


  • Pitcrew

    @ThatGuyThere

    I'm with TGT there. 7th Sea 1st > 7th Sea 2nd because, in many ways, they've taken away individual heroics for group-based heroics. If you want to play a Jackie Chan movie with lots of bad guys getting beaten up by some dude with high Panache, 7S2 is for you. If you want The Duellists, 7th Sea 1 is the right fit.



  • I'll give it a once over tomorrow. It doesn't sound too bad from everything I've heard.


  • Creator

    Only problem is that 1st edtiion rules are clunky. ( At least in my opnion, mind you haven't play 2nd ed yet (I kickstarted it.)


  • Pitcrew

    I'm greatly looking forward to it. I actually love the narrative mechanics, especially for character improvement, and think they'd work well for a MU*. However, I think it would be a challenge to get players who really want to engage with the game - it's not a system that works well for the typical, "I'm going to just create A Random Dude and see what happens," sort of play. Your character is always driving towards a goal. I like that, but I know a lot of people don't.


  • Creator

    Well its something that could be worked at. I suppose the question is: What City, what country? The New World (americas) or Ifriti? ( Africa) Because... those are some of the new books



  • A 7th Sea MU with 2e would be awesome. I will have to keep an eye out and see if it happens.


  • TV & Movies

    Having just come back from a trip to the Caribbean with a camera full of Spanish fortresses, I am both filled with inspiration and at the same time still vaguely underwhelmed by the new books.

    Without getting into a huge simulationist/narrativist debate, I'm just not sure the mechanics are at all suitable to MU-style play, especially since PvP is basically not on the menu. Beyond that, Swordsman Schools seem even more mandatory, not less (the impression the playtest gave us to build up our hopes), and there's so little guidance to building Risks / Consequences / etc that I'm pretty sure things would quickly devolve into a mire of inconsistency and the associated impression of favoritism, rightly or wrongly.


  • Coder

    @bored said in 7th Sea 2nd Edition:

    PvP is basically not on the menu

    You say this like it's a bad thing.

    I'll entirely agree on everything else.


  • Pitcrew

    @Thenomain So, does that mean you'd work on the 7th Sea 1st edition code you've got? ;p I mean, turn it more oriented to how MUs function over how they'd function as OTT softcode.

    Con*: the system is the same one as Houses of the Blooded; even the Risk/Consequence mechanics comes from that. And I can't say that I was particularly excited about studying that system, either. It doesn't seem feasible for a MU.

    In case someone thought the plus was a good thing.*


  • TV & Movies

    @Thenomain said in 7th Sea 2nd Edition:

    @bored said in 7th Sea 2nd Edition:

    PvP is basically not on the menu

    You say this like it's a bad thing.

    I'll entirely agree on everything else.

    I think, by and large, the people in our hobby (or the subset that are active here) like PvP, possibly more than they'll admit to. Maybe not the most extreme versions, but when you move beyond the 4-6 people all doing one thing that is assumed in table top, its sort of hard to imagine everyone doing their things and no one ever coming into conflict over it, especially when the setting itself sets up major rivalries.

    I'd much prefer that the rules could handle it and then staff could figure out how much to encourage/discourage, rather than just leaving me with bad tools from the get go.


  • Pitcrew

    I tend to be very anti-PvP but in a system to use for a mush I want a system that is designed to handle it. Sadly this eliminates a lot of table top systems even the ones we use a lot, mainly for the reason that whether or not I like it is going to happen. It happens is tabletops even, the frequency depending on the group, but even the TT group I am in which is strongly anti-PvP as well runs into it from time to time.
    Not having any systemic tools for it sounds like a starting point for a lot more staff work in the end.


  • Coder

    @bored

    I actually think having PvP options is a good idea for online games even if they won't be focusing on PvP, but I was already typing and I wasn't going to let a good joke go to waste. Or even a bad one, apparently.


    @deadculture

    I would start from scratch. My 1e code is horrific, tho it works surprisingly well. I tried to write an interpreter for the roll system and without making house-rule changes, it is a level of complexity as used by warehouse shipment systems. I kid you not. Both @Chime and @faraday took a crack at it, and we all gave up.

    I can get to close enough, but I try not to code "close enough" as then it becomes a de facto house rule enforced by code. I'm not a fan.

    (Side note: that last sentence was suggested to my by my iPad. It is learning how I think. Neat!)


  • Pitcrew

    @Thenomain Most coders end up having trouble making CG for it due to the advantages. I think making it manual in some places rather than fully automated as a CG would work best, especially when it comes to things like... yeah, the Patron advantage and so on.


  • TV & Movies

    I'm actually kind of surprised that the roller, of all things, was what gave you trouble.

    I am an amateur coder at best, certainly nowhere near as proficient as @Thenomain, but I had a fairly comprehensive RnK roller for my L5R game that could handle most of the permutations possible, even including things like keeping lower dice, and both constant adders on top of dice adders (ie a rolll agility + weapon keep agility + staticvalue, which was common in L5R 4e but obviously is kind of syntactically annoying). I don't think 7S has anything significantly different.

    Maybe I'm totally blanking on what the problem was and talking about something much simpler?


  • Coder

    @bored
    I may have gotten wires crossed, here. My 1e roller is complete. It's the 2e roller that's gird-tastic.

    @deadculture
    I had no problem with the 1e advantages. Haven't looked at 2e deep enough.


  • Pitcrew

    @Thenomain said in 7th Sea 2nd Edition:

    @bored
    I may have gotten wires crossed, here. My 1e roller is complete. It's the 2e roller that's gird-tastic.

    @deadculture
    I had no problem with the 1e advantages. Haven't looked at 2e deep enough.

    Does 2e even have advantages? The primer I saw was... unimpressive. And to be honest, it's just another iteration of the HOTB system.

    ...What amount of asking/begging would it take for you to have a second go at the 1e? :P Or paying, I suppose!


  • Coder

    @bored Roll and keep is easy. 2nd ed (at least the preview version) used this crazy combo system of making "raises". As @Thenomain said, you can get close, but getting it exact in MUSHCode I would say is practically impossible.


  • TV & Movies

    @deadculture Yes, it has them and they cover basically everything, including swordsman schools and magic. You get a few from your backgrounds, and then can buy some more at variable cost.

    The CG itself is perfectly fine, I'd say dramatically improved over 1E's ridiculously complex and min-maxable approach.

    The problem is that the swordsman schools themselves basically triple-quadruple your effectiveness in combat, as you go from 'spend a raise to do a wound' to 'spend a raise to do wounds equal to your weapon skill and/or get some awesome secondary effect too.' Despite the fact that the game lets you use raises from basically any skill to fight (ie, you can DK a barrel at someone with athletics, intimidate some mooks away, etc), there are really no equivalents to this major ramp-up for non-combat approaches.

    Also guns are kind of broken.

    @faraday Yes, considering that I'm talking about 2E, I'm familiar with the roll system. There was confusion between Theno talking about his existing 1E at the same time as discussion of the new system.

    For either of you, I'm not entirely sure why it's unsolvable. Just doing some napkin versions, I see that you can end up with algorithms that won't give you necessarily the same sets, but I haven't found a situation where you end up with a different number of raises.. The only possible rules impact is that you can end up with versions that will prefer to use up all the dice versus ones that will leave some unused, but couldn't that just be a roll toggle? I'd love to see an example of a roll that would confound a simple algorithm (like sort, for each find lowest that gives you >=10, if you don't, add on the lowest and do it again)?


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