Toonamu Plans 2017!!! DOCUMENT DRAFT NOW AVAILABLE!!!

[SparklesTheClown]

@Z-01 said in Gaijin Chaos Z Plans 2017!!! #airhorns:

@HelloProject

You're going to want a Master Plot Document and at least one or two helpers familiar with it. It shouldn't be written solely by you, either. You can part it out further from there, but having things shotgunned around all over the place causes problems pretty damn fast.

I'll keep that in mind! I guess I just didn't want to like, ruin the experience for people helping, due to my whole "vision". But I guess it's one thing to have a weirdly specific artistic vision, and another to actually realistically execute something.

So yeah, I'll get some trusted people to help me out with this plot document. Thanks for the advice!

[Z-01]

@HelloProject

I'm going to continue my thoughts from the HeadWiz thread here, because they are more pertinent to the general building of this MUSH than broad HeadWizzing behavior. The last post I made spoke of power levels, advancement, and disparities between source materials. Around here, most people are pretty comfortable with wild power level disparities, like I said. But -- and I've discussed this with @Benediction at length -- even though I personally enjoy being the Big Guy who can whip on groups of lesser people, it is simply the truth that it's not fun to be functionally unable to contribute to a scene.

So I'd like you to consider a design decision made by Super Robot Wars MUSH: Their mantra when constructing their theme was / is Total Theme Control. What this meant is that while they were attempting to construct a game in which many of the Super Robot Wars notes would be hit, they weren't married to the canonical lore and weren't afraid to rip it out and replace it, or otherwise change it up. The Spiral Empire wasn't just The Bad Guys, even the awful space monsters that have showed up have reason and decent rationale for the things that they're doing instead of being a generic boogeyman to be punched.

Gaijin Chaos Z isn't the story of Son Goku or of the Saiyans. It isn't the story of Naruto Uzumaki, and it isn't the story of Yusuke Urameshi or Usagi Tsukino. Those characters are all a part of the story and they're hooked into existing backstory elements but they're not and shouldn't be the end-all-be-all because it's a MUSH and not their manga.

So how do you deal with Saiyans being Objectively Overpowered? Same way SRW makes Spiral Knights not objectively overpowered: You assert Total Theme Control and just take the overpowered bits away, in this case zenkai. Why? Because it's fine for a Shounen Protagonist to have that in their manga, but the MUSH revolves around more than the Saiyans. So then, what makes being a Saiyan special? Well you know, turning into a Great Ape is actually pretty god damned cool if you ask me. Just don't have it get taken out by tail-cutting and bam, you've got a race with a Cool Power Up that scales but doesn't double their power whenever they get beat up.

Sailor Moon presents a similar problem. At the end of the day, only Sailor Moon and her omnipotence crystal really matters. But it's fine -- even preferable, I think -- to change things like that!

One thing I think you actually need to seriously knuckle down and think about is transformations in general, because this is one of the worst pieces of escalation you're going to have to decide on the appropriateness of. Pretty much all of the shows you're using include an endless escalation of new, ridiculous transformations with new, ridiculous attributes but these transformations are almost inevitably only attributed to main characters.

Do you rip the transformations out? What about characters who have no natural transformation (Like Krillin, or most characters who aren't Jinchuuriki in Naruto), what do you do for them? Do you downplay the transformation aspect and simply let them ascend to a higher tier naturally?

On a less individual, power-based level, how do these various settings tie into one another? How does the Dragon Ball afterlife interact with Yu Yu Hakusho's metaphysics?

In summary, you've got a lot of decisions to make. One of the best tools you could have for answering them is to assert Total Theme Control like SRW did and unapologetically tell people that there will be changes for any number of considerations, and things might not look exactly like they expect.

[SparklesTheClown]

@Z-01 I think I've been doing a form of Total Theme Control, but I think to a much lesser extent.

This actually is very inspiring, because I don't think I went all in with my current theme concept drafts, I think I could go a lot further in a way that makes things feel more cohesive. So yeah, this was definitely extremely helpful advice. I can do much better than I have so far, so I'm gonna go back and do some rewriting.

As far as transformations go, I think they're an exciting and awesome part of any of these themes, so I don't want to remove them. But you're right in that everyone needs something cool. What's great is that Dragon Ball Z itself actually gives us a lot of cool shit to build on, and my earliest MUing background was in MUDs. MUDs addressed this by simply taking stuff from canon and expanding on it to create unique but still thematic transformations.

For example, a common human transformation in DBZ MUDs was the Mystic form, which was based on I believe Gohan getting that sword in the Buu saga. It was equivalent to Super Saiyan in those places. I obviously won't use these exact things, but I'm going to go in this general direction with transformations.

But yeah, I 100% agree with all of this and I'm going to go forward with this. I believe my vision of what I'm doing is much more clear now.

[Z-01]

@HelloProject

Further things to think on:

• How have the existence of Sailor Senshi impacted things like Dragon Ball's planet conquering backstory stuff? They weren't unique to the Moon Kingdom at all, and each planet has a Star Seed. Did Frieza know of this, was he constantly battling superheroes? Be sure to hook things in, stitch them together nice and tight!

• What was the world like in the backstory, before all the Important Stuff was going on? Consider the possibility of roping in other Shounen stuff into either the forefront of your theme or its backstory. Stuff that could've happened in the distant to not so distant past: One Piece, Rurouni Kenshin, stuff like that.

• How do you feel about new themes being integrated? One of the biggest problems with games like MCM and to a lesser extent "soft integration" games like the now-defunct Super Robot Taisen MUSH is that they simply Drop Things In and let them run their course without any sort of curation or actual hooking into the surrounding worlds. Are you going to do what SRW does, and allow things to be integrated by applicants only with great consideration for whether or not it can hook neatly into the backstory of your setting?

In this regard, I actually recommend adopting a similar policy to SRW (yeah, I know, I'm singing their praises here): Allow integrations, do not allow integrations that don't bring something to the story other than their main characters, and don't hesitate to throw things out without much more explanation than, 'I just don't think this fits.'

For example: Integrating One Piece into your background gives you a fantastic set of Cool Toys you can toss around in the form of Devil Fruits, old pirate shit, and it fits the tone of things like Dragon Ball perfectly nicely.

But what if somebody comes along and wants to integrate Hellsing? It's seinen of course, but the main problem with it that all it brings to the table is vampires and a big pile of overpowered FCs, which you can get from basically anywhere. This, I think, is a prime example of something that "technically fits" but which you should say no to.

[SparklesTheClown]

@Z-01 I'll definitely have to work on that background stuff. I feel like I'm nearing the end of my draft. I thought it'd need to be longer, but a lot of the extra stuff I wanna add to it are really not possible right now (like stuff that requires me knowing how I'm gonna code the combat system). This is a very good thing for me to consider.

I've also considered later integration. I in fact even made the world in such a way that One Piece could exist. The problem is that I haven't actually seen One Piece beyond a single episode (I will, it's on my list, I will tackle this beast), so it's just something I plan to do down the line.

I don't plan to add anything without thinking it through very, very carefully, for a number of reasons. But for the time being I enjoy the focus of these four themes, because it's less to think about tonally while I get the game off the ground, and I feel confident enough to make them all fit into the same world. My reasons for not including Bleach are kind of complicated, but can be summed up as: It feels tonally "off".

However, yeah, I'm gonna follow all of this advice. I actually got a ton done today and did a lot of rewriting. Once I write a general background for the theme itself, I'm gonna post up the document draft here for people to tear apart.

[SparklesTheClown]

Draft now available in the first post.

Comments are enabled for anyone with a link.

Tear it apart, make suggestions, write alternative shit, make corrections, note anything that needs adding, whatever!

Let's make this shit happen!

[Ganymede]

This discussion is fascinating.

My only experience with an Anime MU* was over 20 years ago, when I briefly played on a Sailor Moon MU* and a Robotech MU*. (The latter was truly awesome.)

Consider me highly interested in what comes out of this. I don't like anime very much any more, but the narrative issues raised recently are important to me (and my Mass Effect game/ideas).

[SparklesTheClown]

@Ganymede said in Toonamu Plans 2017!!! DOCUMENT DRAFT NOW AVAILABLE!!!:

This discussion is fascinating.

My only experience with an Anime MU* was over 20 years ago, when I briefly played on a Sailor Moon MU* and a Robotech MU*. (The latter was truly awesome.)

Consider me highly interested in what comes out of this. I don't like anime very much any more, but the narrative issues raised recently are important to me (and my Mass Effect game/ideas).

I try to address the narrative issues in my current draft, which was actually very fun to write.

edit: Also, the draft will be left up while I do code things, work out the logistics of how I'm hosting the game (especially since I'm broke as hell, but hey, I always find a way), and work on my code draft document. The code draft document will essentially cover everything that needs to be coded. I would have added it to the design document, but I realized it would be a bit long and messy (and it's already long and messy). So, everything from the who list, to what channels will be on the game, will be in this code document.

[SparklesTheClown]

I added the shitty version of what Google docs considers to be a table of contents, for at least some sort of ease of navigation.

Final document will be a PDF to avoid this bullshit.

[Z-01]

As important as it is to have sounding boards and such, I'd actually recommend not baring everything for the public to see. It's good to have mysteries! It's fine if this isn't absolutely everything, though.

[SparklesTheClown]

@Z-01 I actually don't plan to publish my actual plot secrets and stuff. This is all just foundational theme material, with a lot of stuff kept vague or not really explained much. My plot document will be much larger and not published.

Probably not gonna publish my code document either, as that will have plot secret stuff in it.

[SparklesTheClown]

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

I just thought you'd all like to know that I just got hit with an epiphany.

I may actually know how to finally deal with giving a sense of progression, avoiding power bloat, and having newbies not get left entirely behind (I did have ideas in place for that, but this is so much better).

I'll get back to you once I have a draft written up for this. And yes this may conflict with the design document a bit, but that was always a possibility, since I didn't have the combat system figured out yet.

[SparklesTheClown]

Update: I'm still drafting this combat/progression system. It's, like, a lot. But now I'm ready to say that it will be a pseudo card game. I know that might sound crazy or complex, but don't worry, I said "pseudo" for a reason. I believe that while this does create new problems, it solves a lot of major, much worse problems. My intent is to try and put an emphasis on horizontal progression rather than pure vertical progression, which, when I'm finished, will make much more sense.

[Ganymede]

@HelloProject

I think that is a great idea, actually. I tried to do the same. By narrowing combat to a card or a simple sheet, you could feasibly as a player allow another to control you in a combat that you cannot attend.

[SparklesTheClown]

@Ganymede said in Toonamu Plans 2017!!! DOCUMENT DRAFT NOW AVAILABLE!!!:

@HelloProject

I think that is a great idea, actually. I tried to do the same. By narrowing combat to a card or a simple sheet, you could feasibly as a player allow another to control you in a combat that you cannot attend.

Actually, this is more like combat actions and various combat events are handled with cards. The player character is more like what a Planeswalker would be in MTG (they may have special abilities). Though my intent is to not have anything be wildly outrageous, it's more to give a method of growth and combat that gives this feeling of progression and strategy, without it being like "HAHAHA MY PC CAN BEAT ALL THE OTHER PCS!!!"

Though there will be major villains like that, who are meant to be defeated eventually, but be an extremely imposing threat early on. My emphasis is on the things that can be done in combat, and how things interact, rather than purely "This number is higher than that number!", though numbers will obviously be a part of it. I don't want insane power gaps between players, but I want there to be just enough of a difference for someone to be like "Wow I'm pretty awesome since I got this super transformation".

[Ganymede]

@HelloProject said in Toonamu Plans 2017!!! DOCUMENT DRAFT NOW AVAILABLE!!!:

Actually, this is more like combat actions and various combat events are handled with cards. The player character is more like what a Planeswalker would be in MTG (they may have special abilities). Though my intent is to not have anything be wildly outrageous, it's more to give a method of growth and combat that gives this feeling of progression and strategy, without it being like "HAHAHA MY PC CAN BEAT ALL THE OTHER PCS!!!"

No, it's not. I know what I wrote and what I'm designing.

The way I have things set up on my Mass Effect system you could feasibly boil down a PC to a card that has a list of abilities, and a readout of relevant stats. From there, you can compare the stats to determine the chances of success. When you get "injured," you get an Injury Marker. If your injuries exceed your Toughness, you are out of combat, kind of like how, in MTG, your card goes poof if you take more damage points than your Defense or Health, or whatever the fuck it is called now.

To go back to old school MTG, a veteran PC might be like a Shivan Dragon, with high stats and lots of abilities. But the piddling, smaller PCs could feasibly take it down by laying down more damage on it. For a more familiar system to me, it's like V:TES card, where your Character Card gets tossed into torpor if it runs out of Blood. As an example, an Asari Biotic's abilities are powerful and destructive, but they are targets for low-level Human Marksmen to take out. At the same time, that also means a single player could deploy a squad of PCs on their own, and run a combat without the other PC's players being around (if they can't make it).

Keeping it nice and simple keeps the strategy and the potential for automation. That's what I'm aiming for, and that's something which I think your proposal could accomplish.

[SparklesTheClown]

@Ganymede No I'm saying that's what my system is.

edit: The reason for this system is because I wanted to do away with normal experience and stat progression and find an alternative that didn't lead to inevitable power bloat/creep and alienate newbies.

[SparklesTheClown]

This shit is rough, but I came to certain conclusions about progression and the way that I want to run the game.

I honestly realized that it's very, very hard to design narrative consistency and focus into a progression system that is essentially XP. I still like my card idea, but like, I think I might honestly have to compromise and do +requests. It's not as random or even necessarily as fair as I wanted things to be, but like, in designing this stuff, having a totally 100% random progression system is just not really the game I want to run.

In some ways I feel like this is a failure on what I even set out to do, but I feel like I'm realizing more of what I even want out of this project. Like, it started out to prove a point, but as I think more and more about the kind of game I want to run, my original ideas seem like good ideas in the practical sense, but not in the sense of "This would be a fun game for me to run".

I have mixed feelings right now, about my current decisions, but at the very least I feel like they're the ones that'll make me happy with the game. I feel like I can't keep pushing a design premise that I won't enjoy, when I know very well what I would enjoy.

[SparklesTheClown]

Current plan is still to do cards. I'm trying to use Scrivner to organize everything. Turns out when you're trying to organize a shit-ton of fucking decks, combined with hundreds of cards, Google Docs isn't adequate.

But I've thought of ways to simplify card making, since I'm no longer doing a distribution model.

I have, however, decided that I'm most likely doing to use something similar to the +cookie system that people are familiar with, to chart progress in a fair way. Which means that everyone gets cards and such when they hit a particular milestone, and it's not just staff arbitrarily deciding when you can have something.

Which means that despite not really doing a traditional progression system, Krillin can still end up the savior of the universe, which is the most important part of my vision.

Addendum: I intend to make my card thing open source, just as an FYI, so that people can do whatever with it.