Consent in Gaming

Ganymede

GASP! Mass Effect?

No. I mean, I could, but -- no.

These are good suggestions. We can all have better communication skills, but part of what you're either going to have to get used to or not (that's my I-M-Smrt comment of the day) is that a lot of people don't.

I understand that a lot of people don't. The reasonable step forward is to blame the players. Like, everyone else. I'd like to avoid that if I could, but --

If anyone wants to see a barrier to newcomers, it's this kind of nitpicking which is not the slightest bit useful.

Is that so? Okay, let's say it is so. And let us say, then, that a lot of newcomers -- players, even -- have poor communication skills, and that this is why we still have fist-shaking arguments about consent.

At what point is it considered reasonable for me to put my foot down and request in firm tones that people either start to or learn to communicate better in a hobby that is undoubtedly reliant upon one's ability to effectively communicate?

You said all the points I could dance around, but let's be brief:

Players generally have poor communication skills.
We can solve an important social issue or two if we all communicated better.

But nitpicking about how we communicate is not addressing the problem?

Please.

But let me put my hands up and sue for peace here with the following statement:

If you want to engage in RP on a game, reacting to a proffered suggestion with "that doesn't sound like fun" will likely paint you as a petulant child. It is safe to presume that the people you are engaging with can handle a mild amount of constructive criticism. Instead, try the following reaction: "I'm not really interested in engaging in that kind of RP." And then, if you actually want to engage in RP, offer a suggestion of your own rather than demand that you prospective player-partner produce another for your review and scrutiny.

Going back to the topic at hand.

Every part of this hobby is consensual. No one should be personally offended to the core if you decide not to RP with them or go down a particular path of RP. If you elect to avoid that path, though, there may be consequences, which may include being excluded from RP if what you want to engage in is what others do not. In my opinion, the best way to react to those consequences is to either find players that want to engage in the kind of RP you do, or find another game.

Tinuviel

@Ganymede said in Consent in Gaming:

If you want to engage in RP on a game, reacting to a proffered suggestion with "that doesn't sound like fun" will likely paint you as a petulant child. It is safe to presume that the people you are engaging with can handle a mild amount of constructive criticism. Instead, try the following reaction: "I'm not really interested in engaging in that kind of RP."

I know it's odd for me of all people to say this. But @Thenomain's example was just that. An example. The base idea of "actually say something is not to your taste/interest/whatever" is sound, and that's the point.

Ganymede

@Tinuviel said in Consent in Gaming:

The base idea of "actually say something is not to your taste/interest/whatever" is sound, and that's the point.

Point 1: Saying what you actually mean is an important part of communicating effectively.
Point 2: I have actually had someone say to me 'that doesn't sound like fun' to a suggestion I made recently.

Tinuviel

@Ganymede said in Consent in Gaming:

Point 1: Saying what you actually mean is an important part of communicating effectively.

Well, not all the time.

That said, if all a person is saying is "that's doesn't sound like fun" with no follow-through, then that's excellent and effective communication in the form of a big flapping red flag. The pride flag of the fuckstick.

Thenomain

@Ganymede said in Consent in Gaming:

@Thenomain said in Consent in Gaming:

GASP! Mass Effect?

No. I mean, I could, but -- no.

Insert a gif of frustrated Theno here.

At what point is it considered reasonable for me to put my foot down and request in firm tones that people either start to or learn to communicate better in a hobby that is undoubtedly reliant upon one's ability to effectively communicate?

When did you start Mushing? That's when it would've been reasonable.

You said all the points I could dance around, but let's be brief:

Players generally have poor communication skills.

We can solve an important social issue or two if we all communicated better.

But nitpicking about how we communicate is not addressing the problem?

This was a frustration on my part that the nitpicking raises the drama. Drama is a barrier.

But let me put my hands up and sue for peace here with the following statement:

If you want to engage in RP on a game, reacting to a proffered suggestion with "that doesn't sound like fun" will likely paint you as a petulant child.

How am I supposed to accept that? To me, "That doesn't sound like fun" might make me huff a bit, but I'm not going to throw a fit because someone isn't offering a direction for the discussion.

At least not the first time.

Saying

"I'm not really interested in engaging in that kind of RP."

is much more useful feedback. But "meh" has never come across to me as useless nor petulant. At least not the first time. Here's how easy it is to reply to the above:

"What are you thinking instead?"

Trying to wrap my brain around your viewpoint on this has taken far more emotional energy than coming up with that reply.

@Ganymede said in Consent in Gaming:

Point 2: I have actually had someone say to me 'that doesn't sound like fun' to a suggestion I made recently.

And so we hit the nub of it. You've hit an emotional response to someone who knows nothing about it. Is there a better way to communicate? Usually. Is insulting people a good way to treat the problem? Rarely.

But I understand and am patient. Because that's my solution. Gonna try to stick to it.

Tinuviel

@Thenomain said in Consent in Gaming:

When did you start Mushing?

picture this

Auspice

@Ganymede said in Consent in Gaming:

Point 2: I have actually had someone say to me 'that doesn't sound like fun' to a suggestion I made recently.

And expecting someone to provide alternatives is, in my opinion, valid.

You know who I get annoyed at? Let's call him, in this example, George.

George: Who wants to RP?
Me: Sure, where to?
George: Oh, I dunno. Where would your character be?
Me: Place A, Place B, Place C, maybe even Place D. But I can come up with something for just about anywhere.
George: I don't want to RP in any of those places.
Me: So where would your character be?
George: I dunno.
Me: Well....what might he be doing right now?
George: I dunno.
Me: Okay, well we could try Thing 1, Thing 2, Thing 3....
George: I don't really like any of those.

Someone can drag it out to this point once. Once.
After that, if they just ask for RP without putting anything up, I shrug and move on.

'That's not fun for me' and similar fall into the same mental category. It's someone who just cares about their personal (receipt) of entertainment and no one else's. This idea of 'consent' broadening into 'things I don't feel like RPing right now' is sort of the same, IMO.

If you're not comfortable with graphic depictions of grisly death, awesome. Say it up front in combat and I will make sure that things are glossed over.

If you just want me to serve to provide you entertainment entirely on your terms: we ain't RPing. Period.

Tinuviel

@Auspice said in Consent in Gaming:

If you just want me to serve to provide you entertainment entirely on your terms: we ain't RPing. Period.

This is where the overall topic keeps fracturing. This is the actual point I'm arguing against. None of this shitty person stuff. If a person is a drag like George, fuck 'em. I will almost always, to the best of my ability, suffer consequences. But if the way the executor wants to play is something I find dull or uninteresting, I don't feel that I should have to play it that way.

And if the executor wants to play something in a way I don't, that's literally me serving to provide them entertainment on their terms.

Ganymede

@Tinuviel

Fuck you. And I mean that in the friendly sort of way.

@Thenomain

Clearly, direct insults are ineffective, but at least you understand how I will think of you were you to respond as others have to me.

I am a patient robot, but I am a robot with other shit to do. I don't know how much RPing you do these days, but the example that @Auspice has thrown up has become a regular thing. You can probably see how that would be frustrating to someone who not only has a limited amount of time, but takes some pride in bringing newcomers into the hobby.

Most of us have been on these games for the better part of a decade. I'm pushing into my third decade. I perceive a substantial lack of effort from other players, yet we constantly engage in discussions that border on "what have you done for me lately?" Which, fine, I understand why.

Like, bitch, you and I have throttled each other before, and we're good, and that's fine. You, me, we're cool.

But, as I said above, it seems readily apparent to me that the problems we have regarding consent in gaming has to do with a profound lack of self-awareness and a general lack of communication skills. You can see how the combination can kill not only the interest of newcomers but also tired veterans.

Tinuviel

@Ganymede said in Consent in Gaming:

I don't know how much RPing you do these days, but the example that @Auspice has thrown up has become a regular thing.

To somewhat counter that point, the leadership-ish player that adores lording their authority over others with long-winded and overblown 'scenes' of lectures or whatever else is a thing that has been regular since the first time someone got into a position of authority.

There are fucksticks on both sides of the counter, and I was coming from a place of 'fuckstick exclusion' when I began discussing this topic.

Thenomain

Funny, I was just starting to reply to this before it was even posted. Spooky!

@Ganymede said in Consent in Gaming:

Clearly, direct insults are ineffective, but at least you understand how I will think of you were you to respond as others have to me.

Well I do now. Context can be quite personal.

But, as I said above, it seems readily apparent to me that the problems we have regarding consent in gaming has to do with a profound lack of self-awareness and a general lack of communication skills. You can see how the combination can kill not only the interest of newcomers but also tired veterans.

But as we are no good at it, the give and take should be treated with a grain of understanding, an attempt at understanding the communication from the other side.

All of this within reason.

Such a contextual term, "within reason". And so I'm going to contextualize it to Mushing.

"Reasonable Consent": what is emotionally healthy for you at the time

"Reasonable Sociability": what is emotionally healthy for you to give to others within the scene

And I think another term for "self-awareness" is "learn to read the room!"

Ganymede

@Thenomain said in Consent in Gaming:

All of this within reason.

Such a contextual term, "within reason". And so I'm going to contextualize it to Mushing.

"Reasonable Consent": what is emotionally healthy for you at the time

"Reasonable Sociability": what is emotionally healthy for you to give to others within the scene

I can get beside all of this.

As the terms apply to the topic at hand, I think that the generic response to my peevish one is "dude within reason." Which is fine, dude, I get that. The only counter I have to that is that some of us have been operating "within reason" in a more objective sense for a very long time, only to be ridden off because, holy fuckballs it can be tiring to be nice over time.

There seems to be an apt parable here to the paradox of tolerance, so I would point out that as we accommodate more and more "consent within reason" into games there will come a time when the mainstays who have been tolerant "within reason" are going to toss their hands up, and find a place that may cater to them as often as they cater to others.

Thenomain

@Ganymede said in Consent in Gaming:

holy fuckballs it can be tiring to be nice over time

You know what else is tiring? People constantly grinding their petulant desires into your eyeholes as if any deviance from the way they think the world should operate is a sin.

there will come a time when the mainstays who have been tolerant "within reason" are going to toss their hands up, and find a place that may cater to them as often as they cater to others.

The truly reasonable people are often the first to leave any game, even though they're the last you want to go.

We really should find a time to let you drink me under the table.

Tinuviel

@Thenomain said in Consent in Gaming:

We really should find a time to let you drink me under the table.

We should sell tickets.

Auspice

@Tinuviel said in Consent in Gaming:

@Thenomain said in Consent in Gaming:

We really should find a time to let you drink me under the table.

We should sell tickets.

Gany still owes me whiskey.

Thenomain

@Auspice said in Consent in Gaming:

@Tinuviel said in Consent in Gaming:

@Thenomain said in Consent in Gaming:

We really should find a time to let you drink me under the table.

We should sell tickets.

Gany still owes me whiskey.

I wouldn't get through one drink.

Auspice

@Thenomain said in Consent in Gaming:

@Auspice said in Consent in Gaming:

@Tinuviel said in Consent in Gaming:

@Thenomain said in Consent in Gaming:

We really should find a time to let you drink me under the table.

We should sell tickets.

Gany still owes me whiskey.

I wouldn't get through one drink.

I can't drink like I used to but I can definitely handle more than one.