Incentives

[Derp]

@Sunny said:

@icanbeyourmuse said:

I'm in the party that players shouldn't be able to advance their chars for doing things for others. It is mildly annoying because they are getting oodles of XP when it doesn't have to do with their char.

It's a fair perspective. How do you propose to encourage a game-culture of doing things for other people, if you're not interested in incentives?

It's also not exactly unreasonable. Other people can get xp for STing too. It's not like it's restricted to one person. And the person STing is taking time out that they could otherwise be using to be in a scene themselves. So it's not an unfair system.

To me, this always sounds like ' I wan the same thing but I don't wanna have to do the other thing' which may or may not be true, mind. It's just how it always ends up sounding.

[Arkandel]

I obviously speak only for myself, but I wouldn't mind having a PrP to join because someone else might gain an extra beat out of it. The horror! Hell, I'd give someone a beat if I could if they'd run a story for a few of us. HELL hell, I'd give them one of mine.

But yes, it's the absence of an alternative that clinches it. I've seen very few different approaches over the years though, and I recall having a similar conversation with @EmmahSue on TR at some point, but it's so hard to encourage Storytelling to begin with. It's one of the two limited resources in MU-dom.

[Roz]

I guess I have a hard time imagining people getting oodles of XP. People here have mentioned someone running 4 PRPs in a day? How is that possible? Am I just totally naive because I play on smaller games where PRPs are a once a month or fewer occurrence? I might just not have the perspective of having been on a game that has the volume of players where I can see these types of concerns happening.

I do think a real PRP needs to be more than one scene. I think players running a one-off GMed scene is great and awesome and should be encouraged, but I don't think it constitutes a plot. For my game specifically, the incentive is minimal and not really something you could get oodles of anything through. (Actually, I'm realizing now that all the specifics I'm talking about haven't been fully formalized, because our stat/xp/combat system hasn't been fully installed. But it's going to be something along the lines of an extra luck point like on FS3, for those familiar, not even just a regular XP point.)

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Why would someone run a plot on their staffbit when they could get xp for running it from their character bit instead?

Because some plots are staff plots and some plots are PRPs. I've done both as a staffer. The differentiating line is usually that the staff plots are tied in and related to the game metaplot. I've also been on a staff but had a plot idea entirely separate from the game metaplot that I ran as a player.

[Miss Demeanor]

And some people just aren't confident in their ST'ing abilities, yet inevitably end up falling behind xpwise simply because they can't or won't ST since there's really not any other way to make up the xp lost by not ST'ing. Just because its an option, doesn't make it one that works for everyone.

[Derp]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

And some people just aren't confident in their ST'ing abilities, yet inevitably end up falling behind xpwise simply because they can't or won't ST since there's really not any other way to make up the xp lost by not ST'ing. Just because its an option, doesn't make it one that works for everyone.

Well, in a Storytelling game... that's the whole point? I mean, I suck at FPS games. My friends play Call of Duty and Halo and shit all the time. I absolutely know that I suck at those games, suck at the style, etc, etc. I know that I'm worse than them at it, and that in terms of leetness, I will never be as good.

There is no shame in this thing. It's just the type of game that it is. But the people who can shouldn't feel handicapped because of the people who can't. If you aren't comfortable with it, then learn. If you're unwilling to learn, then perhaps this is not the genre of game for you.

Again, 'you' here in the general sense, not you specifically. But I think that this argument is a weak one, all around. It's a storytelling game. It requires telling stories within a specific ruleset. That's how it works.

[Sunny]

@Roz

Oh god, I got SO MUCH XP with Soleil@TR for running plots and STing and throwing events and the like. While their system is set up to catch people up eventually, I was at one point HUNDREDS of experience ahead of people that started around the similar time, just for my STing.

[Arkandel]

I suppose I don't understand the reasoning. Someone who is more able to get into interesting scenes (due to OOC connections, being a good roleplayer, having a great reputation) will also probably get more beats than someone who doesn't possess those qualities. Is that unfair?

As for running 4 PrPs in a day, unless they're gaming the system for XP by running faux-plots, I don't see how that's sustainable. Citation needed for even empirical evidence, please.

[Wretched]

@Derp said:

@Miss-Demeanor said:

And some people just aren't confident in their ST'ing abilities, yet inevitably end up falling behind xpwise simply because they can't or won't ST since there's really not any other way to make up the xp lost by not ST'ing. Just because its an option, doesn't make it one that works for everyone.

Well, in a Storytelling game... that's the whole point? I mean, I suck at FPS games. My friends play Call of Duty and Halo and shit all the time. I absolutely know that I suck at those games, suck at the style, etc, etc. I know that I'm worse than them at it, and that in terms of leetness, I will never be as good.

There is no shame in this thing. It's just the type of game that it is. But the people who can shouldn't feel handicapped because of the people who can't. If you aren't comfortable with it, then learn. If you're unwilling to learn, then perhaps this is not the genre of game for you.

Again, 'you' here in the general sense, not you specifically. But I think that this argument is a weak one, all around. It's a storytelling game. It requires telling stories within a specific ruleset. That's how it works.

Actually for most of us, or at least a lot of us, the point is to play a character in the setting. The game was designed around a group of players and an ST that had no PC. The ST was responsible for the setting and the NPC's. On a MU, especially in the last bunch of years and the growing popularity of PRP's, (which were all but unheard of when I started MUing), this has changed. So anyone now can run stories and plots and the like, but this is not what everyone wants to do. Yet those who do run stories get an XP advantage over those that do not.

[Roz]

@Sunny said:

@Roz

Oh god, I got SO MUCH XP with Soleil@TR for running plots and STing and throwing events and the like. While their system is set up to catch people up eventually, I was at one point HUNDREDS of experience ahead of people that started around the similar time, just for my STing.

Jeez, I mean, that just sounds like the incentive system they set up is just way bloated. Like, I can totally get frustration if people get crazy amounts of XP for it.

[Derp]

@Wretched

Two words here that need to be focused on:

Setting - This includes the style of game that you are playing. Meaning that part of your setting is realizing that you are playing a character in he World of Darkness (usually) and that the Storytelling System governs that world. You can choose to ignore that if you like, but the people that play within it will ultimately be more advantaged. It's just that simple. Example: I can sit around RP chatting with my friends on World of Warcraft, and never do raids, because I don' think I have the skillset to keep up with something like that. But I will also fall behind in terms of skills, equipment, etc, and it will be much harder for me to keep up. Doesn't mean I'm doing it -wrong-, but I don't get to bitch about raids dropping better stuff either.

'Wants To' - Bingo. This is your choice. It's not something that's forced on you. You aren't forced to get less xp because you aren't allowed to run stories. You choose to. So while this might be a valid playstyle for you, it's not enough of a justification to penalize the people who can run stories and take on that extra responsibility.

[Sunny]

@Arkandel said:

I suppose I don't understand the reasoning. Someone who is more able to get into interesting scenes (due to OOC connections, being a good roleplayer, having a great reputation) will also probably get more beats than someone who doesn't possess those qualities. Is that unfair?

As for running 4 PrPs in a day, unless they're gaming the system for XP by running faux-plots, I don't see how that's sustainable. Citation needed for even empirical evidence, please.

/raises a hand

I did it. Sustainable? Oh fuck no. But I had some things going for the Three Oaks crowd (shout out to my peeps) at one time and there was a particular day that like, everyone was available. For different plots. -.-

@Roz I was getting between 1-3 XP per scene (not per plot), and tore people up pretty regularly (which meant higher danger level so I more often than not everyone got 3xp). Plus I got the initial tier XP, then I started getting the monthly tier XP when they switched to that system.

[Roz]

@Sunny said:

@Roz I was getting between 1-3 XP per scene (not per plot), and tore people up pretty regularly (which meant higher danger level so I more often than not everyone got 3xp). Plus I got the initial tier XP, then I started getting the monthly tier XP when they switched to that system.

Yeah, to me that seems like a lot. (Although I say that without intimate knowledge of the usual process of earning XP on WoD games.) Personally I feel like I wouldn't want an incentive system that really did make it so that certain people could basically zoom ahead with their stats or something like that. I'm cool with incentives, but at a more minor bonus level.

[Arkandel]

@Derp I don't see it like that. Most Storytellers would run plot when they get the itch for it no matter what.

The difference is in encouraging plot to happen. It's more than worth making an effort to tempt someone who's otherwise able but unwilling to do it, but who sees that next big spend sitting a few weeks ahead and going 'hey, I could run 3-4 PrPs to shorten that by a few days'.

Those 3-4 PrPs, if they involve 3-4 players each? That's a ton of RP generated out of that one decision.

But otherwise Storytelling is just one source of XP. If you're playing 2.0 the primary means is through Beats by a large margin. Should we penalize active players for having the audacity to go out and do things? They're getting ahead!

[Wretched]

Except that not everyone is good at, or even wants to run plots. Everyone has a PC and plays the char and the like to gain XP. Telling a story has nothing to do with your PC. So why should your PC gain for something that doesn't involve them? Why should I, fall behind when I play my PC, for not Running plots? Currently, on some games, the best way to gain Xp is to just run plots and never play your PC. Which seems weird.

As Sunny says, you can get chunks of Xp for it.

It's all well and good to say it's a choice, but at as I say, not everyone is inclined to do these things and It is often not what people sign up for. They sign up to Rp a character, but when major advancement of that character comes from not playing that character, something is off.

[Derp]

@Wretched said:

Except that not everyone is good at, or even wants to run plots. Everyone has a PC and plays the char and the like to gain XP. Telling a story has nothing to do with your PC. So why should your PC gain for something that doesn't involve them? Why should I, fall behind when I play my PC, for not Running plots? Currently, on some games, the best way to gain Xp is to just run plots and never play your PC. Which seems weird.

As Sunny says, you can get chunks of Xp for it.

It's all well and good to say it's a choice, but at as I say, not everyone is inclined to do these things and It is often not what people sign up for. They sign up to Rp a character, but when major advancement of that character comes from not playing that character, something is off.

People signed up to play a character in the world of darkness, as I explained above. If they choose to sit arond and chat it up in WoW, then they're also not going to advance.

I covered all of these things in that thing above, actually. If you're not good at it, then you have two choices: Learn, or don't. The consequences of such are completely on you, and nobody else. This is not something unavailable to you, just something that you have to invest in.

As far as getting 'chunks' of xp for it, unless you're a tier character, you generally get the same amoun of 'xp' as the PCs in the scene get, so whether you were there as the PC or the ST is largely irrelevant. If you're playing a Tier, like on TR, then you get an extra 5xp a month. Month. On a game where everyone is up to 800xp+ within 6 months with the catchup system alone.

Not really that game-breaking of a difference.

[Miss Demeanor]

The difference being that you can generally ST more scenes in a day than you can play in plots. You'll have people make up actual ST bits that they'll drop into RP rooms to ST scenes, in addition to their character bit, AND an alt character bit... and all that xp will go to one character. As its been mentioned, people will ST 3-4 scenes a day while the player will generally only be in MAYBE one PRP per day.

But here, lets turn this around for a second. Why should your CHARACTER advance in ability and power for something YOU did as a player that had absolutely nothing to do with your character? The entire system is built around getting xp for PLAYING a character. Not for STing. There is nothing in the books that mention the ST/DM/GM getting xp for running the plot. So why should you?

[Wretched]

@Derp said:

@Wretched said:

Except that not everyone is good at, or even wants to run plots. Everyone has a PC and plays the char and the like to gain XP. Telling a story has nothing to do with your PC. So why should your PC gain for something that doesn't involve them? Why should I, fall behind when I play my PC, for not Running plots? Currently, on some games, the best way to gain Xp is to just run plots and never play your PC. Which seems weird.

As Sunny says, you can get chunks of Xp for it.

It's all well and good to say it's a choice, but at as I say, not everyone is inclined to do these things and It is often not what people sign up for. They sign up to Rp a character, but when major advancement of that character comes from not playing that character, something is off.

People signed up to play a character in the world of darkness, as I explained above. If they choose to sit arond and chat it up in WoW, then they're also not going to advance.

I covered all of these things in that thing above, actually. If you're not good at it, then you have two choices: Learn, or don't. The consequences of such are completely on you, and nobody else. This is not something unavailable to you, just something that you have to invest in.

As far as getting 'chunks' of xp for it, unless you're a tier character, you generally get the same amoun of 'xp' as the PCs in the scene get, so whether you were there as the PC or the ST is largely irrelevant. If you're playing a Tier, like on TR, then you get an extra 5xp a month. Month. On a game where everyone is up to 800xp+ within 6 months with the catchup system alone.

Not really that game-breaking of a difference.

The WoW Analogy is bad. You are equating not running plots to sitting around and doing nothing.

What I am saying is that that 'choice' is a bad one, and most places the ST get's more XP than those participating in the plot itself. The amount of Xp you get from STing makes just playing your PC, the core of what one does on a MU, the least advantageous way to play the game of you want that XP. That seems bonkers. Xp being tied strongly to running Plots is in itself what bothers me. On top of what MissD says above.

[Olsson]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

But here, lets turn this around for a second. Why should your CHARACTER advance in ability and power for something YOU did as a player that had absolutely nothing to do with your character? The entire system is built around getting xp for PLAYING a character. Not for STing. There is nothing in the books that mention the ST/DM/GM getting xp for running the plot. So why should you?

Because you want to reward the storyteller for storytelling because they are needed for stuff to happend, they are more important than the regular players because there are fewer of them.

Also nothing in the books are meant for MU*s, it's meant for tabletop.

[Derp]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

The difference being that you can generally ST more scenes in a day than you can play in plots. You'll have people make up actual ST bits that they'll drop into RP rooms to ST scenes, in addition to their character bit, AND an alt character bit... and all that xp will go to one character. As its been mentioned, people will ST 3-4 scenes a day while the player will generally only be in MAYBE one PRP per day.

But here, lets turn this around for a second. Why should your CHARACTER advance in ability and power for something YOU did as a player that had absolutely nothing to do with your character? The entire system is built around getting xp for PLAYING a character. Not for STing. There is nothing in the books that mention the ST/DM/GM getting xp for running the plot. So why should you?

Actually, the books specifically mention that the ST can apply beats to NPCs and have them grow, too. It's an option. It seems like this is the option that MU's are using with PrPs, only its the ST's PC. So quite untrue.

@Wretched said:

Xp being tied strongly to running Plots is in itself what bothers me.

Then I think you may be in the wrong genre, as stated above. You could do a game totally about character interaction, if you wanted. There's nothing wrong with that. But the storytelling system is pretty much all about the plots. That takes plot-runners. Whether you're the ST or a PC should be irrelevant, you should benefit from furthering the goals of the game.

[ThatOneDude]

@Olsson Good point, and like mentioned elsewhere you honestly need STs for a successful game. If you don't reward STing I'm sure you'll still have some people do it but what's the point? More so when you have some players that make it a pain in the ass for the ST that's not a staffer?