Oct 7, 2015, 2:07 PM
@surreality and @Tat should get together with @Quibbler and wiki the world.
Wiki Templates
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@surreality and @Tat should get together with @Quibbler and wiki the world.
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Why aren't I invited
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Because I enjoy excluding people.
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It's definitely something I want to work on. I'm crash-testing constantly on stuff -- and have that fragile hope some of it could potentially work. SQL integration stuff would be a big thing, definitely, and it is beyond me -- but examples of that would be potentially enough for folks to set up the integration they want or need (if any) with their codebase.
...now if there was a way to create a 'play from the wiki' or wiki-based game engine that links around to all the things when/as needed? AWWWWWWYEAH. So many of the things we talk about wanting from a MU* -- links, instant access to data, graphics, color, etc. -- would be entirely possible.
But that's ten thousand miles beyond me. The things that could be accomplished with that could potentially be amazing. It strikes me as something that is likely possible, though.
I suspect people have tried, because somewhere in the pile of extensions I saw something about a dice-roller.
It'd be an entirely viable option for play-by-post/play-by-email style games, and I'm surprised that isn't something I see everywhere already. One of the main stumbling blocks is that everything is visible, and privacy would be an issue. If something involving bot edits could be tweaked, there's hope at least, but still. Otherwise it'd more be a cultural issue of people getting used to things all being 'public' in some fashion, like open sheet/etc. People play through google docs and on forums plenty -- adding edits to a page in a special 'scenes in progress' namespace that could later be moved to a private logs or public logs namespace if the visibility issue could be sorted would be pretty much amazing and not much different from that. Again, it's the whole visibility thing that's the largest stumbling block.
There are chatbox extensions, though I'm not sure how well any of them work; it'd be an option for something more real-time if so.
If I am ever poking at the original system thing again, I might try this in the more 'play by post' (play by edit?) format. I was able to get the basics (and the basics aren't very basic) of a +sheet together, and with original systems, every element on the sheet is clickable so you can see exactly what the power/stat/whatever does. (Not possible with copyrighted game systems, alas, unless it's something HR'd or just a reference to the book and page -- but even that can be a major help.)
Oh fucking well.
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I don't really understand why wikis aren't more popular for play-by-post stuff, come to it. I've got a friend right now starting up a game on a dreamwidth journal, which is the first time I've really been introduced to that medium, and I can't help but figure that doing stuff like that via wiki would allow for the same play style but much better organization of content. All about user preference, I guess.
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I'm gonna try to add a section for it eventually along with some stuff to facilitate cutscene writing based on just what tools we have now; but yeah... I would love to see this done.
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@Roz said:
Lol of COURSE wikis are the one thing that would get Tat on Soapbox.
I literally registered this morning to post that comment.
Spreadsheets may also have been successful.
LOOK I LIKE WIKIS.
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Also, OMFG.
...the template-fu really is so much easier with SMW, though I'm tweaking the blazes out of it for formatting still. Holy mother of cats. Thank you, @Roz. I have a lot of recoding to do, but yegods. Converting All The Things will not be terribly quick but damn. DAMN. The properties and ability to store things there rather than in-template is
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@surreality said:
...now if there was a way to create a 'play from the wiki' or wiki-based game engine that links around to all the things when/as needed? AWWWWWWYEAH. So many of the things we talk about wanting from a MU* -- links, instant access to data, graphics, color, etc. -- would be entirely possible.
But that's ten thousand miles beyond me. The things that could be accomplished with that could potentially be amazing. It strikes me as something that is likely possible, though.
Yeah, I feel like that's the dream and I wonder if it could re-invigorate the hobby. The reality is that there is TONS of roleplay out there, it's just scattered, and the entry-barrier to M* is super high.
It'd be an entirely viable option for play-by-post/play-by-email style games, and I'm surprised that isn't something I see everywhere already.
I've seen it before, but it doesn't seem to be super common. I suspect this is because 1) wikis aren't actually very good for discussion or give/take in the way that RP needs. Even forums are better. And 2) though wikis can become super user friendly, they don't start that way - getting a wiki into shape takes a lot more technical know-how than getting a forum into shape.
Even a package like what we refer to would involve someone adjusting LocalSettings.php and moving things around on a server on a constant basis.
If I were building a play-by-post wiki, I'd be looking for, at MINIMUM, a chat-box extension, something like liquid threads, something to prevent edit conflicts, which have always been buggy for me, preferably semantic wiki and semantic forms to keep things easy on the player end, and then the 'usual' stuff like parser functions, arrays, input boxes, etc. I'd also want a better rich text editor - and I don't know of any that work with semantic forms, unfortunately (I haven't looked much though).
In other words, there'd be a lot of stuff. I think it can be done, but it almost has to be done by someone who already sort of understands the strengths and weaknesses of wikis and how to make it work for RP - and I think most people who run Play by Post probably don't. Heck, it took me until like my 3rd wiki to even start to feel like I was doing things in way that made reasonable, consistent sense.
One of the main stumbling blocks is that everything is visible, and privacy would be an issue. If something involving bot edits could be tweaked, there's hope at least, but still. Otherwise it'd more be a cultural issue of people getting used to things all being 'public' in some fashion, like open sheet/etc.
It's interesting that you mention this, because most the games I've played for the past 10 or so years have been pretty much completely transparent. I actually don't think it's as big a hurdle as it might seem. That said, these games have ALSO not been PvP. I think transparency is ttly different when PvP comes into play.
If I am ever poking at the original system thing again, I might try this in the more 'play by post' (play by edit?) format. I was able to get the basics (and the basics aren't very basic) of a +sheet together, and with original systems, every element on the sheet is clickable so you can see exactly what the power/stat/whatever does. (Not possible with copyrighted game systems, alas, unless it's something HR'd or just a reference to the book and page -- but even that can be a major help.)
Yeah, THIS sort of thing is what makes wikis super powerful and super awesome. Semantic wiki is pretty damn great because you can then also manipulate those by clicking on a header and seeing, for example, everyone who's taken that skill in order by points or something like that. It automates a ridiculous number of things if you're smart about how you do templates.
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@Tat said:
Yeah, THIS sort of thing is what makes wikis super powerful and super awesome. Semantic wiki is pretty damn great because you can then also manipulate those by clicking on a header and seeing, for example, everyone who's taken that skill in order by points or something like that. It automates a ridiculous number of things if you're smart about how you do templates.
This is pretty much what I'm thinking. I was able to get the basics of it all done with basic templates, so I'm interested in seeing what else is possible now.
I'm wondering if it'd be possible to have something like a 'chatbox' imbedded at the bottom of a 'room log' or something along those lines, or on the bottom of whatever the structure was for the 'building the scene' pages. Then, small OOC commentary can go back and forth.
But... yeah. It's a lot of stuff to consider. It seems viable, though. Randomizers would need work, which is never easy. I never had an issue with the transparency issue re: sheets, either, but some folks are super cagey about it. I can see perhaps wanting to keep certain RP subjects more private cough but other than that it seems like something that shouldn't be impossible a hurdle to get past.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said:
I'm wondering if it'd be possible to have something like a 'chatbox' imbedded at the bottom of a 'room log' or something along those lines, or on the bottom of whatever the structure was for the 'building the scene' pages. Then, small OOC commentary can go back and forth.
I'd certainly think so. There's this, for example: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Chat
You could probably combine that with extensions that embed one wiki page in another.
There are also extensions to add comments, like https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Comments
And you could do something like embedding a google doc at the bottom of a page, too. Just sort of depends on what functionality you want.
Randomizers would need work, which is never easy.
There is a dice extension (https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Dice), but you're honestly probably better off with a third party platform built for handling rolls and sheets if you're doing a game solely on a wiki. There are a few forum/play by post games that I've seen do this.
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@Tat said:
That's actually pretty neat. Combined with a wiki page for room desc/notations/descriptions, that's kinda cool. It reminds me of a more location-focused version of some of the digichat setups.