Tips on Güd TS
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@Auspice said in Tips on Güd TS:
I just read this and I think I should leave it here:
http://astolat.tumblr.com/post/144069870158/badscienceshenanigans-0hciceroThat was a glorious read. Thank you.
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@Arkandel said in Tips on Güd TS:
[You should] ask. "Hey, my character's RP with yours was funny, I kinda see them becoming an item, what do you think about that?". It's that clear, and if they say no it's okay.
The key in both cases though is be prepared to take 'no' for an answer, and that means paying the other person the courtesy of asking them so they get to answer. What is distasteful is shadowing some guy/girl around, showing up in every scene or paging constantly asking for RP then nagging them IC for a relationship. That just isn't cool. Sometimes - hell, often-times - it can work organically without an OOC conversation first but given the sensitive material at hand having a chat early on saves a lot of headache down the line.
Whatever you do, no matter what, for the love of $deity do not spring coercion on people unless it's been discussed in advance. That's the only real no-no in any of this. Your mileage concerning such things can vary wildly; some people figure IC is IC so anything goes, other people only tolerate IC consensual relationships, that's up to you... but no matter what do not try to IC coerce a relationship or sex without discussing it OOC first, ever. Ever.
That means no blackmail going into a kinky direction, no spilling vitae into the cheerleader's mouth to make her love your character, no using Awe or Mind 4 to alter their perceptions, no forcefully accidentally whoopsie tearing clothes off during a fight... nothing. It's an instant trip to the creepy side even if it turns out afterwards they were okay with it. You were still a creeper, you just got lucky (no pun intended ).
Just ask first!
So, funnily enough, I find the exact opposite of what you're describing to be 'creepy behaviour'. I say this as a female who's been pestered for her number, address and nudes on MUDs by people I made the horrendous mistake of engaging in IC relationships, even ones which were strictly fade-sex only, even with the knowledge that I was in a committed RL relationship and was discussing everything that happened in-game with my partner to make sure she was cool with it. Even during a time when I was underage, as I've been MUDing for over half my lifespan.
I don't know you, so for all I know you're the most pristine fellow on the internet, with an impeccable degree of respect for your fellow humans and the social acumen to never make anyone uncomfortable. (Based on your comments on the Haven thread, I don't have a negative opinion of you.) I do know though that while I agree that 'communication is key' in most contexts, an excess of OOC communication with someone I'm TSing or co-writing a fictional relationship with is going to make me run for the hills. I suspect that partially, this is a cultural discrepancy between MUDers and MUSHers — most MSBers seem to be of the latter, and I've only started dabbling in that genre in the last couple weeks; the level of OOC communication that's expected/allowed there is taking some getting used to.
I find it much, much worse if someone is trying to OOCly coerce a relationship or sex without roleplaying the approach IC first and do not deem the reverse coercion at all. To me, IC is IC. If it makes sense for your character to spike my cheerleader's drink, as much as I reserve the right to request a fade if I get squicked, then by all means, go ahead. Unless you're incredibly cheesy about it, I will probably laugh quite a bit if whoopsie clothes-tearing occurs during a fight in the style of this scene. The minute some fucker starts messaging me OOC to say 'nngh, your character is hot', sending winkyfaces or asking me how I feel about our characters entering a relationship — holy fuck, I'm gone. The answer to that question, by the way, is usually I don't. I don't feel anything about our characters entering a relationship, at least not before it's happened; I go with the flow, and if it happens, it happens, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. What ever happened to good old-fashioned 'roleplay it out' and 'find out IC'?
I certainly have some criteria for whom I will and won't RP a relationship with. Does the player have IC/OOC separation issues? Do they write well? Does their character draw me in, and can I see myself writing with them without getting bored for extended periods of time, on a regular basis? (And as mentioned above, minimal OOC communication is a plus, for me.) But ultimately, it's about our characters' feelings for each other, not the players' feelings for each other, not the players' feelings for the characters, or anything else. I don't seek to enter IC relationships with characters I deem 'hot', but rather with characters whom I deem to have interesting stories which will mesh well, organically and realistically with the story I'm telling on mine. On the whole, I'd say that the more likely I am to find a character attractive IRL, the less likely I am to want to RP a relationship with them IC; give me flaws, wrinkles and quirks for a story that has depth and meaning, not a cookie-cutter happily-ever-after that I'd rather pursue IRL. I respect everyone's right to pursue whatever it is they're looking for when they RP, but wish-fulfilment doesn't appeal to or impress me. I almost always play characters whom I feel in some degree superior to.
If a character hits on mine, my character will either say 'yes' or 'no' based on what makes sense. If it makes sense for my character to say 'yes' but I want to say 'no', I will find some IC excuse, like 'whoops, got no condoms', 'wink wink maybe next time but gotta dash', or 'you're cute but my wife died last year and I'm still in mourning'. Conversely if IC rejection happens, then that ought to make for just as good a story as sparks flying would. I wouldn't want someone to ask me if I can see our characters ending up together in order to decide whether or not their character should be interested in mine in the first place. If it makes sense for your character to be interested, my character's interest or lack thereof shouldn't affect that, at least not initially. I'd have been spared a lot of heartache from unrequited love if that was how desire worked, and spared an equal amount of delight from shared desire were it so meaningless a realisation. These are the stories I want, but if you're only pursuing perfection, I suppose we wouldn't work out, anyway.
The only kind of communication I want is when things are on the verge of getting graphic or intense. I will always send out a tell/page saying, 'Hey, let me know if at any point you're uncomfortable with the scene, and we can stop, skim or ease up,' and I expect the same from a roleplay partner if they're initiating (or heck, even if they're not). I don't appreciate people springing penises and upskirt-dives on me unsolicited, and if it happens after I've made my boundaries clear, then so help me, so help them, so help everyone. I'm baffled though by the notion that people should ask first before they even proposition someone IC; how is that less off-putting than propositioning someone OOC? I've never been called creepy based on my sexual/romantic roleplay styles, though granted, I'm willing to accept that maybe no one's just ever had the guts to tell me. Nonetheless, I think I'm pretty good at inferring whether someone enjoys my RP based on how often they seek me out for it, based on the effort they put into their emotes when interacting with me, based on whether they'll stick around in a scene for hours and based on whether they greet me enthusiastically on OOC channels. If my character hits on them and any of these things change, I back off. My policy of 'roleplay it out' does not apply to harassing people who've expressed/implied disinterest in interacting with you altogether.
On the topic of perfection and my disinterest in it as a storyteller: let me just add that the absolute worst TS I've had in recent memory, barring a two-sentence fade with someone who was stalking me on multiple alts and used mind-control to eventually corner one, was the worst by virtue of the fact that if it happened IRL, it would have been the best I've ever had. It had me staring at the screen thinking, 'Who is this chick? What the fuck is happening here?' Amid all the ecstatic moaning, back-arching, eyelash-fluttering and orgasmic gasps, I ended up just having my (male) character finish early and fall asleep. Scenes which started with yelling matches, awkward fumbling and ended with brooding, confusion or dissatisfaction were hotter by far. Someone suggested talking OOC about likes or dislikes? You're missing out. I once ended a sex scene when my character's partner pulled out a knife and told her it would turn him on if she'd cut him in the midst of it. Her response was 'wtf', she fell off in confusion without finishing, and instead we RPed the couple talking out their differences and limitations IC.
P.S.: Great thread. I lol'd mucho. Thanks for making my Saturday, @Auspice.
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@Kestrel said in Tips on Güd TS:
I find it much, much worse if someone is trying to OOCly coerce a relationship or sex without roleplaying the approach IC first and do not deem the reverse coercion at all.
I think there's a line here -- and in one respect I think everyone is on the same page, and on the other, everyone's scattered all over the map.
Mainly, I think most folk are relatively chill about respectful, neutral inquiry, without the heavy breather factor attached (politely asking without awwwyiss bebe yur hawt overtones), but that's still going to vary widely.
I think we're universally all on the same page that someone wheedling, pushing, bullying, badgering, or hardcore skeeving toward that end OOC is profoundly uncool. Basically, an OOC 'not interested' shouldn't get pushed or wheedled at or bullied OOC, as that's serious creeper territory.
I think the main difference -- if I had to put a pin in it -- is that you're chill with people pressing for it anyway IC through IC means, while a fair number of the MUSH crowd would be less so, and would find that to be 'pushing for it IC after the OOC no thanks came down'.
This is sticky (pun not intended); I've seen this from both sides.
- I've had RP with no initial conversation that went somewhere IC, and that's very neutral ground if it's pursued further IC.
- I've also had instances in which the initial OOC conversation has taken place, and guidelines have been laid down amongst those involved... and then people push for things vastly outside them, or utterly contrary to them, through IC means.
There is a world of difference here between the two scenarios.
In the first, if something happens that's unwanted or squicky, it's not like the other party could have intuited so by magic[1]. It's not intentional. You know someone is not knowingly disregarding or disrespecting you on the player level, because it's a case of 'shit happens'.
In the second? Not so innocent. Player to player, limits were agreed upon. 'Out of bounds' was likely decided. Knowingly disregarding these things is already not good. Forcing them to happen anyway through IC means is now much worse, because the other player? They know it's not kosher on the player level, or it would have been in the safe zone in the first place.
It basically doubles up the squick factor, because IC force is being employed to steamroll the other player, regardless of whatever agreement was made (which means untrustworthy right off the bat on the player level, at the very least).
[1] Major taboo territory -- incest, bestiality, snuff, and similar 'you can't even legally buy porn of it' subject matter -- is still something that people should probably be prepared to assume is not automatically fair game, to my reckoning.