Regarding administration on MSB



  • @ganymede Ow, that was my very favorite spleen. :(


  • Pitcrew

    @faraday said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    @thatguythere said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    If you want a board with the level of discourse seen on game channels then it is a given that we will never be happy on the same one since games channels to me are only useful for the occasional Hey anyone want to RP? shout outs, otherwise they tend to been dead silent or filled with nothing.

    I didn't mean literally just the "<Public>" channel - I meant public chat channels in general. And perhaps our experiences have been different. I've seen numerous games with chat channels filled with constructive policy discussions, theme discussions, code discussions, and chats about everything from healthcare coding to superhero movies and sports teams. Occasionally somebody goes overboard, but for the most part these conversations are civil and harmless because many (most? I hope?) staffers don't tolerate anything different on our games.

    We have had very different experiences on public channels. What I have noticed on public channels is mostly random waving, some general flouncing around, various cries for attention. Though there is rarely anything hostile it is never anything I generally consider good or worthwhile either. Though in your examples the only things I would consider worthwhile would be the policy and code discussions, on a game I consider babbling about movies or sports to be a negative on a channel.


  • Coder

    @thatguythere said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    Though in your examples the only things I would consider worthwhile would be the policy and code discussions, on a game I consider babbling about movies or sports to be a negative on a channel.

    That depends on your POV right? I mean we've got a whole section here for "Tastes Less Gamey" including a thread about hockey and IIRC one about basketball. There have also been various threads about all sorts of "pop culture" things. To me that sort of stuff builds community, even if I personally keep the <Sports> channel on mute because it's not my thing. (I like sports, I just don't follow it closely enough to have any comment beyond "Go Steelers!" :))

    But my point is - we don't normally see those discussions turning into dumpster fires on our games. The community as a whole is capable of reeling itself in when there are enforced standards.


  • Pitcrew

    @faraday
    Oh we have the tastes less gamey section here, but to me it is useless to the purpose of the board. It is generally harmless so not really an issue and while i will comment in them they are not what brings me here.
    To me I think it comes down to what you see the purpose of this board being. the purpose for me is a site associated with any one game that issues with games (both negative and positive) can be discussed without the powers that be on the games being able to shut down the topic.

    Edit to add: I guess my counter question is what purpose does the tastes less gamey section here or the various not game related channels serve on game?


  • Coder

    @thatguythere said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    To me I think it comes down to what you see the purpose of this board being. the purpose for me is a site associated with any one game that issues with games (both negative and positive) can be discussed without the powers that be on the games being able to shut down the topic.

    And that's a valid purpose. But my view of the board is more in line with what @Arkandel said before - I see MSB as more of a community center for MUSHers to connect beyond the games they play on.

    I think it provides value in bringing different perspectives from other "spheres" of MU* gaming together when we discuss aspects of MUSHing. For instance, some of the stuff talked about re: WOD games has been interesting to me, even if it's not very relevant to my games.

    It lets people relate more as players, independent of their in-game personas. I'm not sure how many knitters are on BSGU for instance, but it's nice that knitters from all over MUSHland can connect here and chat about knitting. We've seen this have positive impacts when the community comes together to help each other - like the gofundme things that have happened now and again.

    It lets us advertise our games - to recruit new players - and our projects - like the status updates on Evennia.

    And yes, it lets us air our grievances in a forum that individual game owners cannot silence. This is an important thing, but it is not the only thing. I would argue it's not even the most important thing, though I understand others disagree on that point.


  • Admin

    @thatguythere said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    @faraday
    Oh we have the tastes less gamey section here, but to me it is useless to the purpose of the board. It is generally harmless so not really an issue and while i will comment in them they are not what brings me here.

    Sometimes I think those sections are as, or even more useful than the rest of them put together.

    The greatest hurdle we have - sometimes - is keeping in mind there are people behind the character or user names. Those threads reveal those; the sportsy, the nerdy, the weird... we're here, persistantly, and we have lives beyond the hobby.

    It can't hurt to think that more often.


  • Coder

    @arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    Sometimes I think those sections are as, or even more useful than the rest of them put together.

    Yeah. One other response to @ThatGuyThere's remark about what purpose they serve... games come and go. I may not be playing with certain people on a game right at this moment, but it's still nice to have a central place to come and chat with them about stuff.


  • Pitcrew

    Ahh so this is one of those community things that I just don't grok.
    To me if the main thing I have in common with someone is that we MU then they are a MUer and regardless of the other bits of their lives that is what they are.
    There are a few exceptions to this but those are rare and are given non-game or board was to contact and keep in touch.
    This isn't even an on-line thing for me, I love chatting with the folks at the comic shop but they are the comic shop people to me I would not go out of my way to invite them out on the town, though I would say "hi" if I ran into them while I was out drinking.


  • Admin

    @thatguythere said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    Ahh so this is one of those community things that I just don't grok.
    To me if the main thing I have in common with someone is that we MU then they are a MUer and regardless of the other bits of their lives that is what they are.

    Allow me to try and help you grok it. :)

    So let's say you're a MUer and you meet another MUer; that person does something that makes them unlikable to you. It doesn't need to be (and often isn't) anything really bad - maybe they pose a way you don't like, or play characters you find obnoxious. Maybe they spam a little more than you like. Perhaps they use wiki codes in their poses (ugh, those people).

    Either way we've seen, again and again, these little petty dislikes go back and forth as the feeling is returned until they become toxic. A perceived microaggression just gets to the point of groups - since people get their friends involved, too - dogpiling each other, until loners get flamed sometimes right out of existence. For nothing.

    Anything that helps us keep in mind that 'hey, that's the person who just got a new job and was talking about that movie that I also liked' also establishes the fact the annoying jerk is an actual person. It's a small thing, but it fucking matters.

    When I had to put my cat down and I saw all the messages here comiserating it didn't change the fact I no longer had Izie around. But it's nice to think that hey, some of these folks are more than names on my screen and that, maybe, I am occasionally more than that on theirs too.

    That, too, matters.



  • Faraday appears to be super mega invested in turning this into rainbow unicorn times. Way more invested than anybody willing to argue with her about why she's wrong, anyways. It's not worth the time.

    I will reiterate that the people who have said the board will die without the "negative parts" are 100% correct.

    And not because "omg eff u i will quit msb if I can't yell at people" or anything, I've just seen already what happens to forum after forum when they start getting censored or try to be 'havens of positivity'.

    They die. Nobody cares about that stuff at least not on the 'check the forum once a day or so' kind of scale. Without the 'bad stuff' you lose the reason to pay regular attention to the board. The Faradays/etc will stop posting too, because there will not be "positive friendly helpful threads!" every day. There never are. Once people stop checking the board daily, and it becomes a "oh I haven't looked in a few days, let's see if anybody posted a constructive thread! ...nope they didn't", they eventually stop bothering to check entirely.

    Been there, done that.

    If you haven't been there and done that, IDK what internet you've been on, but you must be new.


  • Coder

    @arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    But it's nice to think that hey, some of these folks are more than names on my screen and that, maybe, I am occasionally more than that on theirs too.

    This.

    And I know, I know, I'm beating a dead horse. I'm sorry (kinda). But this is why I think it's sad that the negativity is cutting out some percentage of our MU* community from participating in all the good things that having a MU-wide community center offers.

    If it could truly be kept behind the wall in the hog pit, then maybe it's no different from it being on a different forum entirely. I have my doubts, but I'm trying to give @Arkandel and company the benefit of the doubt here.


  • Admin

    @tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    Faraday appears to be super mega invested in turning this into rainbow unicorn times. Way more invested than anybody willing to argue with her about why she's wrong, anyways. It's not worth the time.

    Let's not reduce this argument on either side into a strawman. It's not a "people who just want to see the world burn" versus "people who want rainbows and unicorns".

    There's more nuance than that, so let's find a compromise instead of demonizing each other.



  • @arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    @tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    Faraday appears to be super mega invested in turning this into rainbow unicorn times. Way more invested than anybody willing to argue with her about why she's wrong, anyways. It's not worth the time.

    Let's not reduce this argument on either side into a strawman. It's not a "people who just want to see the world burn" versus "people who want rainbows and unicorns".

    There's more nuance than that, so let's find a compromise instead of demonizing each other.

    Multiple people have tried discussing this with Faraday for the past like 15 pages. She is single-handedly dominating this discussion.

    As far as I can tell, most of them gave up because she isn't listening.

    She's still pushing, and you're still listening.

    IDK.


  • Admin

    @tempest That's my secret, I'm always listening.

    ... that came off way more creepy than I intended it.


  • Coder

    @tempest said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    Faraday appears to be super mega invested in turning this into rainbow unicorn times.

    I have said, like, a bazillion times that I am not opposed to negative feedback and criticism. What I am opposed to is hostility and vitriol. And if your argument is that a community is incapable of having a discussion forum without being complete and utter dicks to one another, then that says more about the community than it does about me.



  • I'm not "demonizing" @Faraday or anything.

    I am just saying, the past like 10+ pages of this thread have been "the people VS Faraday", and some of her points have been way off base.

    The whole "the tone on MSB taints the public channel on games!" thing is just....wrong. It's honestly more than wrong, it appears to be purposefully disingenuous in an attempt to make it seem like we really need to censor MSB for the sake of MUing!

    It's like one of those things that isn't real, at all, but if you throw it out there, it sounds like it could be real and people will fall for it.

    I'd honestly wager the exact opposite is true. If people can't come vent here about stupid shit on game, they will find other ways to do it. Quite possibly on the game itself, leading to huge problems.


  • Pitcrew

    @arkandel false


  • Pitcrew

    @arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    So let's say you're a MUer and you meet another MUer; that person does something that makes them unlikable to you. It doesn't need to be (and often isn't) anything really bad - maybe they pose a way you don't like, or play characters you find obnoxious. Maybe they spam a little more than you like. Perhaps they use wiki codes in their poses (ugh, those people).

    In that case I avoid RP with them, and wish them well in future RP. I do that because I generally wish everyone well. Hell, I hope VASpider has enjoyable rp even though I will continue to avoid any game she is on. I don't see treating how people with basic humanity, equals any sort of community. And that is my response weather I know the person prefers Coke to Pepsi or whatever else.

    On to the cat example, as someone who has lost pets I definitely sympathize with that, but if you had posted something I disagreed with in another thread right after that I would have responded in the same way I would at any other time.

    Edit to add: To me it comes down to what the purpose of an endeavor is, for example I was put in charge if a special project on a job, and was free to choose those working with me. I shocked the people I worked with because of the people I selected, I only got along well with one, to me it was the obvious group to select because they would do the best job, and that was the purpose weather I liked getting trapped in the conference room for 8 hours a day with people I didn't want to be around or not.
    For this board as I stated the purpose is discussion and I think that is facilitated by people not having to pause before they express there thoughts to make sure no one will be offended. I am willing to bet most people have had feelings hurt by posts here are at the preceding sites I will admit to it, but to be that is not a big deal if the board is able to serve its purpose.


  • Pitcrew

    @arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

    Either way we've seen, again and again, these little petty dislikes go back and forth as the feeling is returned until they become toxic. A perceived microaggression just gets to the point of groups - since people get their friends involved, too - dogpiling each other, until loners get flamed sometimes right out of existence. For nothing.

    Honestly, I think that this is one of those things that people get or don't. I don't know that having ooc chat here or elsewhere really helps humanize folks to people who want to keep things very distinct, or who are incapable of separating the person from who they are online.

    I think I have met well over...50 mushers at this point. Not at a big gathering like a meetup at a con, but over dinner, many times over providing a crash space/meeting place/hospitality for people passing through. I have yet to be in a situation where I have regretted meeting or spending time and attention on someone RL, that I met on a game or via gamers, even if they hurt me later.

    I have met people who I frankly found annoying as fuck online who have become dear friends. People who I greatly enjoyed/enjoy online who I find to be obnoxious in person. People who are well regarded online that i've seen behave absolutely horrifically in person, and those who are or have been online pariahs with whom I enjoyed RL company.

    But I am a people person. I love people. I enjoy people. I enjoy and care for a wide swath of people of various social skills and presences. It's not hard for me to hook into and feel genuine warmth for a community, and so I love reading up on what folks are wanting to share they're up to.

    But it is not bad or invalid for people to have preferences the other way. Maybe because of history, or inclination, or whatever. It's okay to not be a people person. I don't think not being interested in the RL details of an online acquaintance's life makes you a horrible or antisocial person, or at risk of becoming more toxic. (As we all know, some of the most toxic people online thrive and must have that community/online connection to do what they do).


  • Coder

    @thatguythere

    Except that this is not a job.

    If the example that you can work with people who you don’t get along with, then that’s great and we could use more of that.

    Solving this is kind of a community thing.

    Edit:

    You know, Tempest, for someone who says they’re not demonizing Faraday, you are using her as the straw man for things people have been saying about Wora for over a decade. That is a little demonizing. There are a lot of things that’s could be said about the logic without saying that her defending her viewpoints counts as dominating the thread, or mentioning her at all.

    You’re tired of the discussion. We get it. Breathe.


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