Question on NWoD combat


  • Coder

    If a character is engaged in grappling, can you use All-out attack?
    If so, do you lose your strength dice or defense dice on the next round?
    If you lose your defense dice, there doesn't seem to be any penalty for all-out attack?

    We never ran NWod before, so we're clueless.



  • @Tyche I'm going off of 2nd Edition rules here, so I hope that's what you're running. Anyway, no. You can't make an all out attack in a grapple. The reason is that once a grapple is established, you're no longer actually making attack rolls. On the next character's initiative in the grapple, all grappling parties make a roll of their strength+brawl. Whoever wins controls the grapple in that turn, and can choose a maneuver from the list of ones available. If they score a critical success with 5 or more, then they get to chose two maneuvers. But while these are strength+brawl rolls, they are not attack rolls. The are grapple check rolls, which is a subtle difference.

    Hope this helps?


  • Coder

    Thank you very much. That makes sense.


  • Politics

    @ShelBeast is right, though I would add that it has less to do with it "not being an attack roll" (you can still 'attack' in a grapple roll, since there are maneuvers that do damage) and more to do with "Defense is not applicable in a grapple" (which means you have no Defense to sacrifice.

    I make this distinction mostly because not having a defense can apply to other situations and should be considered when it comes time to decide whether you can make an all/out attack or not.


  • Pitcrew

    In CofD 2E, you do not technically make an attack roll in a grapple, even when you are inflicting damage, you make an opposed Strength + Brawl roll. @Coin's reasoning fails because you do not lose defense when you are grappled in either edition.



  • @tragedyjones said:

    In CofD 2E, you do not technically make an attack roll in a grapple, even when you are inflicting damage, you make an opposed Strength + Brawl roll. @Coin's reasoning fails because you do not lose defense when you are grappled in either edition.

    I was about to post this myself. The only time you lose defense in a grapple is when you've been pinned, which in and of itself takes three grapple actions to achieve. First, it needs to be established/controlled, then you need to take the hold maneuver, and lastly the restrain maneuver. Then the restrained character is denied their defense. But that's it.

    Actually, though, there is a log I'll share of a CofD 2E combat workshop I ran for the fine folks over at Reno, and a Combat cheat sheet I made on googledocs for my house game that I'll share. I hope it'll help people in learning and understanding the combat system.

    Combat Workshop (with examples): http://reno.mechanipus.com/wiki/Logs:Dorian_Does_Combat

    Google Doc Combat Cheat Sheet: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tds5heZgazcqvMNT9D8tvXrwvpIeKIRIn1DXu5mCGp8/

    Added Bonus! Workshop of the Doors Social System: http://reno.mechanipus.com/wiki/Logs:OOC_Dorian_Discusses_Doors


  • Coder

    @tragedyjones said:

    CofD 2E

    You're mocking me now, aren't you.



  • @Thenomain We're all going to have to get used to it sooner or later. It took people years to call Vampire the Requiem anything other than some variation of New Vampire The Masquerade, after all.


  • Tutorialist

    A good rule of thumb is: If you don't have defense, you can't do something that would make you lose your defense.


  • Coder

    Except you still have defense when grappled, your defense is just penalized by the grapple. You can still try and defend yourself to an extent against other attackers other than the person grappling you.


  • Politics

    It's true! I forgot that. Although, technically you only have your Defense against other people, not against the one you're in a grapple with. Fun.


  • Coder

    @ShelBeast said:

    @Thenomain We're all going to have to get used to it sooner or later.

    He's mocking me because there is no 2nd edition of CoD. Mocking me. Watching me. Here's there, now, reading. He'll start explaining that all comic books share a single continuity. It will end in blood and madness. Mostly blood. Mostly ... his.

    Or I'll put intentional easter eggs into BitN and he'll never find them.


  • Pitcrew

    Completely off thread topic, but you could very easily lay the foundation that all comics share a single mulitversal continuity.
    Starting with the unofficial JLA Avengers crossover in the early 70s that the writers did with out editorial permission and were just sly enough it got published. to things like the unnamed Buried Alien in Quasar that was so obviously meant to be Barry Allen then dead in the DCU.
    Then in the 90s you start with more official crossovers then you can shake a stick at. Most famously the Marvel Vs DC or DC vs Marvel mini series, yes it was officially published and copywrited as both version of the name.
    The easiest way to counter this argument would be to simply point out that for the better part of a decade no comics have shown to have anything but the barest grasp of any sort of continuity.


  • Coder

    @ThatGuyThere said:

    you could very easily

    Spoken like a true comics nerd.

    For the rest of us, we'll wait for the movie.


  • Pitcrew

    Obliterating the purpose of this thread, but:

    According to Marvel comics, all Marvel stuff takes place withing a grand multiverse, where every universe that is part of the Marvel Brand exists. Further, though, there is also an omniverse, which includes everything. Including the DC comics multiverse.


  • Coder

    @Thenomain said:

    Mocking me. Watching me.

    Can confirm.

    So, back on topic, what is your defense penalized by when you grapple?

    Ex: I roll a grapple "attack" to grab Steve and establish the grapple (which would be str + brawl - Steve's defense, yes?). Assuming, I pass, we will then roll the grapple (str+brawl vs str+brawl) during the next highest init. What if, between my grabbing Steve, and Steve and I rolling our grapple, someone walks up and hits me with me with a bat?


  • Coder

    @skew said:

    So, back on topic, what is your defense penalized by when you grapple?

    Ex: I roll a grapple "attack" to grab Steve and establish the grapple (which would be str + brawl - Steve's defense, yes?). Assuming, I pass, we will then roll the grapple (str+brawl vs str+brawl) during the next highest init. What if, between my grabbing Steve, and Steve and I rolling our grapple, someone walks up and hits me with me with a bat?

    That question popped up just after I posted while we playing. We agreed that the defense would be reduced by 1 via the multiple attacker rules and moved on. However, we had some reservations on whether anyone in a grapple would have much of a defense against a third party.

    BTW, we were playing the 2004 1st edition of NWoD. Hunter: The Vigil setting.


  • Pitcrew

    @skew said:

    @Thenomain said:

    Mocking me. Watching me.

    Can confirm.

    So, back on topic, what is your defense penalized by when you grapple?

    Ex: I roll a grapple "attack" to grab Steve and establish the grapple (which would be str + brawl - Steve's defense, yes?). Assuming, I pass, we will then roll the grapple (str+brawl vs str+brawl) during the next highest init. What if, between my grabbing Steve, and Steve and I rolling our grapple, someone walks up and hits me with me with a bat?

    You apply your defense as normal, but are not able to take a Dodge action.


  • Coder

    @Tyche said:

    BTW, we were playing the 2004 1st edition of NWoD. Hunter: The Vigil setting.

    That would make a difference for combat, as a whole, but I'm not sure how much of a difference in this given situation. In the CofD rules (ie, 2nd edition) armor is it's own thing, and doesn't add to your defense. I'm sure there are some other differences I'm forgetting.

    I'm also sure that you, the ST/players, could figure out what if any bonuses or penalties apply. The system is designed to be used as you need it, after all!

    @tragedyjones has the actual answer! He's the resident Rules Lawyer.


  • Pitcrew

    To elaborate a bit more, If a character opts to use the Hold Maneuver in a grapple, both characters lose their defense. While not entirely unclear, I don't personally believe that someone under the effect of Hold would be subject to a killing blow; it takes more than a lack of Defense for that. However, from a Hold one can apply the Restrain Maneuver, which may be enough.


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