Honestly, the best advice I can give anyone looking to use SWSE for ANY setting can be summarized in one word:

Don't.

Only DSS is worse as a Star Wars system, IMO, and I've played all three major Star Wars RPG systems enough, on MUSHes and off of them, to say it with some authority. All SWD20 systems, SE included, play like a D20 dungeon crawler with Star Wars stickers slapped over the Dungeons and Dragons labels, to the point that someone I know IRL referred to SWD20 as Dungeons and Death Stars. Balance is known to trigger hysterical laughter, characters are generally cookie-cutter similar, and a gap of a few levels between opponents is known to be insurmountable in most cases. Twinks love this system, because there is so much to abuse; far too much to list, most of which comes from character 'builds'. Which is also the reason why it's not popular with non-twinks who have experienced this.

That said, if you absolutely have no choice in which system you must use, a few tips may make the game at least bearable for players who come to play a game and have fun, and not to 'win'.

First, don't take the names of basic classes too seriously. Some games use these names as a reason to restrict access to them. This is a trap that is easy to fall into. The fact is, there is not a great deal to choose from in terms of classes, and restricting access only makes the cookie cutters that much more obvious.

Second, unless you have a very good reason for doing so (and very few exist), don't restrict access to the Force in chargen, for the obvious reasons. Many players consider Force Slots and other restrictive practices an instant turn-off.

Third, be extremely careful about allowing Dark Siders as PCs. Twinks love Dark Side characters, because they allow all the Force-y goodness without any of the moral obligations inherent to Jedi and other Light Side Force traditions. Especially Sith. Since SWSE is a twink magnet to begin with, if you choose to allow Dark Siders outside of a campaign that is nothing but Dark Siders, expect problems. Trust me, you won't be kept waiting long.

Fourth, consider alternate ways to earn XP, and alternate ways to advance. SWSE advancement is glacial in most cases, and no changes can be made to characters until the next level turns over on the XP-odometer. This is a source of considerable frustration to even the best-dispositioned players.

More as I think of them. This should be a good list to start with.

Well, those are steps in the right direction. I skimmed the four pages to this point, so I may have missed that part.

Doesn't really help the uber-nerfing (A/B/C), though. And given the limited number of feat and talent slots available in SAGA, it makes playing a Force User pretty pointless (and likely very short)... in spite of words to the contrary, SAGA is first and foremost a dungeon-crawl combat engine, and everything else, including the setting, feels haphazardly tacked on... mostly because it is. This is one of the reasons that I've largely given up on SAGA games. Feats and Talents spent on becoming a Force User can (and usually will) be spent on more effective ways to kill one another with much more easily available weapons, which, combined with being unable to get Skill Focus: Use The Force makes Force Powers borderline useless, and Force Users easy meat for anyone with even a cheap blaster. Combat focus or no combat focus, sooner or later some twink will decide to unlimber Ol' Cheapshot-Cannon and collect on a Jedi bounty.

This is especially true when you consider that Jedi is the only starting generic Force Using class (the people who run this game, like on the other games they've run, limit access to classes solely based on their names... most of which have very little to nothing to do with what they represent. The Soldier, for example, may never have served in any army or other fighting force in their life, and the Scout may never have done any formal scouting for anyone, even himself, ever. The Noble may not necessarily hold any title, or even be part of any governing body, and the Scoundrel may not be a smuggler, con man, or even a criminal. You get the idea. The Jedi may never have even heard of the Jedi Order, let alone been part of it, and many other Force traditions were known to have used the lightsaber). This makes it impossible to get all the necessities of being a Force User without dedicating your whole first, and likely second and third levels to getting them. Make sure to take some useable skills and abilities besides the Force in chargen if you don't want your character to feel generally useless (a common problem in SAGA, since it's very easy to miss useful things in the buckets of clutter that are Feats and Talents. This is magnified by the borderline glacial levelling in this system).

So plan carefully and do lots of system research if you want to play a Force User. Or anything else, really, since the system seems to demand great attention to detail. Of course, this may take some or all of the fun out of playing a game...

@Lotherio Good luck. What sort of place will it be when it's finished? I might be interested in having a look at it.

Back on the original subject, there is, regrettably, no "perfect" Star Wars game system, but D6 got as close to the feel of the Star Wars galaxy as any system ever has to date, and, even with its foibles, is still the most accessible outside of MUSHing, and the easiest to learn.

FFG is almost as good, but has its own issues; I've only ever seen one FFG Star Wars MUSH come to fruition, and it died in less than a year (it was a niche sort of game, admittedly, or it might've lasted longer). A second, earlier game never got off the ground; the creator got disenchanted with the system a few months later, and tried to solicit interest in making it a SWSE game instead, but got no bites. The system code that was used in the first game was apparently very tricky, and was never quite in tune with the on-paper game system, though it got close. I think I heard that it was built from a GeneSys system for a different MUSH, which works just slightly differently than the FFG Star Wars system.

@Seraphim73 said in Feedback Needed - SWSE System & Character Concepts:

There are a number of Feats/Talents/etc that are simply better (or worse) than similar ones, but the biggest threat to balance (in my opinion) is comparing skills to attacks/defenses at early levels (under 10-12). This manifests itself through the use of Use the Force for defenses (Block/Deflect) and attack (most damage-dealing Force Powers) and Vehicular Combat, but also works for Intimidation attempts and any other time you roll a skill against a defense or attack roll. The biggest culprit is Skill Focus. At level 1, you can have a Use the Force or Pilot of 15ish, which is about the same as most defenses -- before you add 1d20. My suggestion is to House Rule this to Skill Focus providing a bonus of 1/2 level (round up), with a max of +5.

This is a houserule to be very careful with. Sure, it limits Skill Focus, but it also creates a wider gulf between higher and lower level characters when rolling against one another, one that won't be rectified until someone reaches Level 10 (Skill Focus never goes above +5 anyway, so the limit is a moot point). This makes said houserule a favorite among D20 twinks who are already at Level 10 or above, since it is noticeably easier for them to stay on top of the heap.

Oh, that reminds me... don't start Characters at Level 1 unless there is an advantage for doing so. Most application systems for SWSE I've ever seen allow applications at different tier levels (say, Third, Fifth, or even Eighth Level, just as an example), and only suggest Level 1 if there is a built-in advantage in that selection, or if the character is intended to be disposable (perhaps created for a plot or story arc and not intended to survive, or even intended to die during play).

Honestly, the best advice I can give anyone looking to use SWSE for ANY setting can be summarized in one word:

Don't.

Only DSS is worse as a Star Wars system, IMO, and I've played all three major Star Wars RPG systems enough, on MUSHes and off of them, to say it with some authority. All SWD20 systems, SE included, play like a D20 dungeon crawler with Star Wars stickers slapped over the Dungeons and Dragons labels, to the point that someone I know IRL referred to SWD20 as Dungeons and Death Stars. Balance is known to trigger hysterical laughter, characters are generally cookie-cutter similar, and a gap of a few levels between opponents is known to be insurmountable in most cases. Twinks love this system, because there is so much to abuse; far too much to list, most of which comes from character 'builds'. Which is also the reason why it's not popular with non-twinks who have experienced this.

That said, if you absolutely have no choice in which system you must use, a few tips may make the game at least bearable for players who come to play a game and have fun, and not to 'win'.

First, don't take the names of basic classes too seriously. Some games use these names as a reason to restrict access to them. This is a trap that is easy to fall into. The fact is, there is not a great deal to choose from in terms of classes, and restricting access only makes the cookie cutters that much more obvious.

Second, unless you have a very good reason for doing so (and very few exist), don't restrict access to the Force in chargen, for the obvious reasons. Many players consider Force Slots and other restrictive practices an instant turn-off.

Third, be extremely careful about allowing Dark Siders as PCs. Twinks love Dark Side characters, because they allow all the Force-y goodness without any of the moral obligations inherent to Jedi and other Light Side Force traditions. Especially Sith. Since SWSE is a twink magnet to begin with, if you choose to allow Dark Siders outside of a campaign that is nothing but Dark Siders, expect problems. Trust me, you won't be kept waiting long.

Fourth, consider alternate ways to earn XP, and alternate ways to advance. SWSE advancement is glacial in most cases, and no changes can be made to characters until the next level turns over on the XP-odometer. This is a source of considerable frustration to even the best-dispositioned players.

More as I think of them. This should be a good list to start with.

This post is technically a necro-bump... which is a fairly apt term, since Kitten (or Red Queen, to use her old name on the game) has been Kitten, and has largely ditched the game for her Fallout game (El Dorado) and some new horror game, in spite of repeated promises to the contrary. The place is presently on hiatus until the beginning of next year.

Perhaps in your shoes, I would think that, too... but it's not the case. If my information has been more general than specific, it is largely because it's been years since some of those events happened. It is presented as a warning to players and potential players, and not an attempt to ruin their fun.

As for the game, I haven't played or even visited it, so I only know of one person who is staffing there, which I learned through posts here. Given that it's a SAGA game, I doubt I ever will look into it. But I bear Hssiss himself no ill will, and if he has put together a game that people are playing and enjoying, without the problems that plagued the last two SW SAGA games of his that I played on (one of which was Star Wars: Dark Times, just for clarity's sake; the other was Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic), I wish him well. Dark Times was an unpleasant experience all around, which is one of the reasons that the initial post threw up warning flags for me. The issues that killed that game deserve to be avoided, and it sounds like they are taking some steps to do that. Bravo.

Hssiss was known to hang out with a group of other game players/runners that were involved with those other two games; they tended to move as a group, with others sometimes getting involved over the history of the games in question. Two of those staff were particularly problematic, in both those games and other games, both older and newer. Current names are impossible to give, as they changed them every time they went to a new MUSH, but they moved as a pair, usually took jobs as facheads over two major factions at war with one another, and catered heavily to one another's alts in one another's factions to facilitate advancement, all to achieve dominance of their respective factions (on one game, one of them routinely PKed potential rivals to her position, on a game with little to no PVP as a general rule). They tended to play favorites among players in their orgs, to the point of excluding other players from RP and/or advancement through various means (forced lesser rank/status in orgs they controlled, no opportunity for advancement allowed for various reasons, allowing advancement only through RP that they alone judged, etc.).

There was more, and worse, and I regret that I can't call more of it to mind right now. At one point they were poaching players from Star Wars: Unsung Heroes, where they had once worked as staff, via a coded message that popped up when a new player connected, stating that UH was not very active and suggesting that they visit Star Wars: Generations, their own game, and provided contact information for that game. Some time later, likely not long after Generations closed, one of them lost a staffbit on Star Wars: Generations of Darkness for an unspecified offense (only the second staffer to lose a bit in this way, and likely for similar offenses), and they both quit the game immediately after. I lost track of them after that, but I hope very much that they are not involved in this new game of Hssiss's, for the sake of the game and the players.

As for SAGA, it is a separate matter; I hate it because of what it is, and what it brings to a MUSH. It's not terribly relevant to my point, however, because there have been more SAGA MUSHes than the ones Hssiss has been involved in, and it is possible to have a successful SAGA MUSH, no matter how I may feel about the system. Mostly I've addressed others' comments about the system because I was wondering how much they agreed with my own experiences with it. Thank you to anyone who has spoken up about this.

This is what puts most people off of SAGA, honestly.

Unless it's the fact that the system/setting combo is very nearly the king of twink magnets. And when some of the twinks are staff, you know you're better off finding another game. I don't know if Hssiss has any in this game (we may hope not), but two of the last games he was involved in had a couple of them (which likely also contributed to the swift demise of Star Wars: Dark Times).

The blame and shame are theirs, not his, but it's something to be careful of.

Well, those are steps in the right direction. I skimmed the four pages to this point, so I may have missed that part.

Doesn't really help the uber-nerfing (A/B/C), though. And given the limited number of feat and talent slots available in SAGA, it makes playing a Force User pretty pointless (and likely very short)... in spite of words to the contrary, SAGA is first and foremost a dungeon-crawl combat engine, and everything else, including the setting, feels haphazardly tacked on... mostly because it is. This is one of the reasons that I've largely given up on SAGA games. Feats and Talents spent on becoming a Force User can (and usually will) be spent on more effective ways to kill one another with much more easily available weapons, which, combined with being unable to get Skill Focus: Use The Force makes Force Powers borderline useless, and Force Users easy meat for anyone with even a cheap blaster. Combat focus or no combat focus, sooner or later some twink will decide to unlimber Ol' Cheapshot-Cannon and collect on a Jedi bounty.

This is especially true when you consider that Jedi is the only starting generic Force Using class (the people who run this game, like on the other games they've run, limit access to classes solely based on their names... most of which have very little to nothing to do with what they represent. The Soldier, for example, may never have served in any army or other fighting force in their life, and the Scout may never have done any formal scouting for anyone, even himself, ever. The Noble may not necessarily hold any title, or even be part of any governing body, and the Scoundrel may not be a smuggler, con man, or even a criminal. You get the idea. The Jedi may never have even heard of the Jedi Order, let alone been part of it, and many other Force traditions were known to have used the lightsaber). This makes it impossible to get all the necessities of being a Force User without dedicating your whole first, and likely second and third levels to getting them. Make sure to take some useable skills and abilities besides the Force in chargen if you don't want your character to feel generally useless (a common problem in SAGA, since it's very easy to miss useful things in the buckets of clutter that are Feats and Talents. This is magnified by the borderline glacial levelling in this system).

So plan carefully and do lots of system research if you want to play a Force User. Or anything else, really, since the system seems to demand great attention to detail. Of course, this may take some or all of the fun out of playing a game...

Re: Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story

I read the first post on this thread and the warning flags shot up like mushrooms after a rainstorm. Here's why:

 Fires of Hope is based on the SAGA d20 system, is focused on a single planet to start (Arda-2) and will only spread out to a few planets beyond that in the same system of space. Further we have instituted a goal system to put a focus on character development role play as opposed to combat.

 A few things to note about Force Users:

 Force apps are limited. They will be opened up as the active playerbase grows. Staff will post for applications when a slot opens up.
 Applications should be submitted as a concept and set of goals for the future of the character.
 Staff will review the concepts and pick out the ones that are viable and then post them up for a player vote. The concept with the most votes will get to move forward. Ties will be broken by Staff.
 Apps will be done as normal, with the following rules:
 a. No former Jedi (aka No Jedi Class).
 b. No Force Training feat.
 c. No Skill Focus: UtF.

With the exception of the setting and the additional uber-nerfing of Force Users, this is the exact same setting as the failed Star Wars: Dark Times MUSH, right down to starting on one planet and gradually expanding the grid (by the time the game was officially dead, there were only two planets on the grid, and one didn't show up for just over six of its twelve weeks of active life; the six weeks spent waiting on the coroner really shouldn't count as active life). The setup was likely a large part of what led to the game's swift demise.

My issues with SAGA d20 aside (they are enough to keep me from going anywhere near this place), SW: DT's policy for limiting Force User apps generally allowed one app per ten approved PCs on the grid (with the votes and other things mentioned for the new game being what determined who got the slot. The process also had almost zero transparency, so little was known about the results until the slot was awarded). This caused the population to explode to just over fifty approved characters over the course of a few weeks, but in the end few of them saw more than a week or so of active play. Some of them may have been created to bloat the roster and force FU slots to be opened. Only two FU bits were ever offered or approved over the game's life. One of these went to a staff member (staff, to their credit, decided to only allow staff to app for FU slots once every other time an app became available. But since no other FU slots ever became available, the rule became a moot point).

This is just an example of what generally comes of using limited FU slots. Knowing who at least one of the staff is, I'm tempted to take a look at this place just for the sake of morbid curiosity.

Edited because still learning how this particular interface works.