PRP or SRP
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@EmmahSue said:
I don't see the need to differentiate.
There is a need to differentiate. In some cases it's just how it is and in others, how it should be.
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In some games doing 'important things' requires staff approval. There are even thematic elements you literally can't use and you'll get in trouble for trying. For instance on HM for some time you couldn't use Brood in Vampire at all in PrPs - but obviously VampStaff were able to. Plus you can use a full assortment of the sphere's resources; no one will bat an eye because you brought in the Prince as staff because it fit the scene right then, but do it as a player and you might get frowny faces.
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There's an issue with documented continuity. Staff plots tend to be better respected in terms of their consequences; create a demesne in your Mage plot and it stands a much higher chance of being referenced by PCs who weren't part of the scene to begin with.
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Staff-ran plots have a theoretically higher chance of not being dumb. Remember that plot where that guy landed a freakin' UFO in the middle of Aleswich? With aliens coming out and shooting laser beams at people? Wouldn't you have facepalmed harder if it was done by someone in staff?
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Metaplot is something staff should at least be defining if not directly handling. Else it'll never be consistent (which is assuming staff composition is stable but I digress) as different players will be steering it in different directions.
And so on.
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@Arkandel said:
No, there aren't enough coders. I've spoken to several people who really want to start a new game and they fail to find someone to set up and code it up for them.
Then we need to find non-coded solutions.
This will be my mantra for 2015.
Figure out what's not needed and strip it from your mental vocabulary. Do you know what we had on the original Masquerade? +sheet, +roll, and that's it.
You yourself were whining about telnet-based game systems, Ark. Find non-telnet solutions. d20Net was mentioned. You've forgotten about Nuku's flash-in-the-pan 4e D&D game that used online spreadsheets as a map system, for god's sake. We have the technology, but not the culture.
Be the change you want to see.
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Oh, I know. And I agree. I shouldn't have stopped developing when ES told me Glitch had been coding his similar approach for a while but it was easier to sit back and wait for someone to do it than get my hands dirty.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said:
Oh, I know. And I agree. I shouldn't have stopped developing when ES told me Glitch had been coding his similar approach for a while but it was easier to sit back and wait for someone to do it than get my hands dirty.
No, it's not. It's easier to be lazy and complain that other people aren't doing it.
I gave you a handful of ideas that don't require a coder at all, and this is the best you've got? Then I don't know how you can feel you have the right to make demands on the community.
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Which demands, exactly, do you believe I'm making?
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Over in the The Reach thread:
@Arkandel said:
At the cost of being wildly off-topic for this thread, the only way to rejuvenate the hobby is to divorce it from telnet clients.
Your solution is...?
@Arkandel said:
it was easier to sit back and wait for someone to do it than get my hands dirty.
Go you.
I know you were talking about different things here, but both of them have the same source: You have the ability to make a change, but instead you're sitting on your laurels and then have the audacity to point out how there aren't enough coders.
If you have a horse, and you say that you do, then get on it. This is the perfect situation for someone with a high horse to ride that sucker into the future.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
It takes no amount of audacity to point out there aren't enough coders; it's simply a fact. There haven't been 'enough' ever since I first got into the hobby since being one requires two rather different sets of interests (not all coders are into MU*ing).
Storytellers are somewhat more common since what makes one - creativity and writing skills - is pretty compatible with roleplaying to begin with.
So I am not demanding anything. Conversely I've never 'demanded' more Storytellers on games I've played either whether I was actively running PrPs at the time or not. It's nice to have them, even required, so it's always appreciated when someone steps up and does it - same as coding.
My only 'demand' from people is to not be jerks. Anything else I'm simply thankful for.
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Your tone and your constant complaints makes me believe otherwise. Even when I've given you some suggestions for your friends, your reaction is to defend yourself about doing nothing.
As someone who is doing something, this annoys the everloving crap out of me. As you have expressed your ability to do things, but choosing not to, and still complaining that things aren't being done, I don't see how you feel that you have a leg to stand on.
Sure, some of this is inference, but seriously, dude, be the change you want to see.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
Both.
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@Thenomain - I love and appreciate all the coding you're doing as "base" nWOD stuff. It's really lovely. Streamlining things, automating things, reducing the need for paperwork. SUPER WONDERFUL. That being said (and meant):
My initial experience with MUSHing though was on Firan, which was so very code-heavy that moving from gridsquare to gridsquare you got LAG. Actual lag. Madness. It had a lot of really awesome bells and whistles, but I think when creating bells and whistles sometimes we lose sight of the story. So from my perspective, before I ask for custom code (or code it myself which takes forever but I'm willing to do it if I have to), my question is always - "how does this help us tell a better story?"
If the answer is "it doesn't?" Then that code doesn't need to be written. Period.
Which is not to say that all code relates to STing. Sometimes the "help" code provides STing is to automate something so that there is less paperwork/administrative overhead, leaving staffers more time to ST. But before coding those things, I do ask also - "does this administrative thing really need to be done and why, or is there a way to remove the need for it entirely?" Because a lot of times the answer is - no. No it doesn't need to be done. Yes we can do without it.
It's not that I hate coders. They are wonderful and resourceful and brilliant and helpful. But the more code-heavy a game is, the less it seems like people focus on story, entranced by all the bells and whistles. Or the more mired in paperwork. Both things are brutal.
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@Darinelle
All of that that you just said basically just agrees with Thenomain when he says that most games just need basic upkeep from coders. If he finished his "basic" nWoD code, games will be able to start up easily and without all that much help from coders unless they want something specific. -
@Thenomain said:
Your tone and your constant complaints makes me believe otherwise. Even when I've given you some suggestions for your friends, your reaction is to defend yourself about doing nothing.
As someone who is doing something, this annoys the everloving crap out of me. As you have expressed your ability to do things, but choosing not to, and still complaining that things aren't being done, I don't see how you feel that you have a leg to stand on.
Sure, some of this is inference, but seriously, dude, be the change you want to see.
Perhaps I am not communicating correctly. I'll try again.
I am not defending myself. I am (and was at the time) fully aware I was being lazy when I stopped developing for a non-telnet MU* platform once I heard someone else was doing it. That's not a defense, it's an admission. I think Glitch is crazy.
If my tone suggested making undue demands of anyone's additional time or effort I can only apologize for it, it was unintentional.
For what it's worth I think discussions such as this are part of the solution and not the problem.
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@Coin - Oh I know. Thenomain and I often agree on many things - I just do so verbosely.
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Fair 'nuff. It's part of the risk of talking like a lawyer, perhaps. (And my frustration at people relying on coders without thinking of other options.)
Still, I think seeing about using some of the web-based tools to accentuate the more nuts-and-bolts part of the game is an option. Be The Change, etc.
edit: Or maybe stop relying on WoD games.
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Back on topic, I dislike the designation between SRP and PRPs. I think there should be:
Metaplot - Guided by staff for cohesion, affecting the entire game or a large portion thereof. Some portions of this may be able to be run by players and staff alike, but the overall story should be guided/told by a staffer. The potential for large game-changing consequences could be present.
Sphereplot - Approved by staff and affecting an entire group of players, this could be run by staff or by players, but should have one person overseeing the entire plot from start to finish, even if individual stories/events are run by various people. The potential for medium-to-large game-changing consequences should be allowed, provided staff is ok with this.
Characterplot - Anyone should be able to run these, that highlight and affect a smaller number of players. Mostly these will have small-to-medium consequences that could affect the game, and anything larger should be at least run by staff.
And I really, really, REALLY think that if staffers want to run Characterplots for their friends, they should be able to. And if people want to run sphere or metaplot without being staff, they should be able to. It's up to staff to ST, drive metaplot, and make sure that the stories that affect the grid/game make sense within the theme and with the goals of the game. It's important to have a coherent vision. But I also think it's important to share the fun of STing, and to let other people do things too. And to remember that at the end of the day, staffers are people too - if they want to run things for their friends, then let them.
If they ONLY run things for their friends, maybe they need to not be staff, and can just be STers. But if they run metaplot and then also want to run something for a buddy? Who the fuck cares?
Also to Theno's point I rather agree there too. If you want to just RP a story that isn't "let's meet up and just chat", you should be able to do that. Whether that's considered characterplot or just RP is up to you. If you want to have it make a larger splash, then you should be able to choose that after the fact too. Sometimes when running a plot you don't expect people to just use claymores in a city gridsquare, but that's what they come up with so fuck - why NOT run with it?
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@Darinelle said:
And I really, really, REALLY think that if staffers want to run Characterplots for their friends, they should be able to.
Yeah, I think it's going a bit too far in not appearing to favor anyone if they couldn't run things for specific people. However that doesn't mean they won't be perceived as such anyway.
The easiest way is to simply run plots like that with their playerbit. Problem solved. Anyone who tells staff how to spend their non-staffy time can, well, stuff it.
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@Arkandel - and what about staffers who don't have PCs?
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- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said:
@Darinelle said:
@Arkandel - and what about staffers who don't have PCs?
Those poor souls. Why?
Sometimes it's easier to just ST and have fun, and then when you say "look, I'm not taking sides in this, I just want good story" people actually believe you. Of course there's also the fun of STing when your character can't get involved and so people jump all over you ICly for not being effective in the plot that, you know, you're STing.
Not having a character neatly circumvents those things at least. I'm not saying there aren't other problems created by it, but those two things fundamentally lower my enjoyment from STing and so if that's what I'm there to do then getting rid of things that ruin my fun is not a bad idea.
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With any sort of plot, there needs to be oversight of some kind. While I'm not a DC reader, I hear Flashpoint was kind of nuts. Flash, not being one of the big three, rarely got any oversight for story stuff. So they went balls-deep and went nuts with it, to the point where DC decided it would be easier to reboot their whole universe than it would be to sort out the mess. So, too, I feel it is with some PRPs. The problem is when people either 1) lack the scope to realize that no, what they're doing is wrong, but by the time staff get wind of it, it is a monster to retcon, 2) realize it, but don't care. Even SRPs could do this, but they have the benefit of having staff on hand to help nip things in the bud.
