Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game
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@Arkandel I don't know about "the closest you can use a system the better it will be". Like, if you don't mess with a tabletop-designed system when making a MU, you are just trying to shove a square piece into a circle slot, imo, and that is when you get people complaining social things don't work, etc. I am not saying you need to custom everything, or anything at all, but I am for sure not a proponent that the rules as written are the best rules for any game!
I can honestly say that after Secrets of the Covenants, my trust in OP mechanics is forever broken.
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All this is basically why it's actually way easier and more in-line with what @Wizz actually wants to make it be Forsaken Tribes with the Apocalypse Tribes as Lodges.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@SunnyJ said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
@Arkandel I don't know about "the closest you can use a system the better it will be".
I misspoke (although you might still disagree with me of course). What I meant was "the closest you can use the easier it will be". If you use the nWoD GMC rules verbatim then it's at the easiest; if you are house ruling almost everything then it's probably harder than starting from scratch.
I can honestly say that after Secrets of the Covenants, my trust in OP mechanics is forever broken.
What was the problem with it?
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
What was the problem with it?
Everything.
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@Arkandel I don't know if anyone can disagree with that! XD Yeah, it would be easier, but if a game demands (which is a HIGHLY subjective notion) new rules, I think it isn't too much to ask from players to read a page in the wiki or two, or even three, since in comparison to people running the game that is not work at all!
As for Secrets of the Covenants, that is a subject for another topic, or private discussion. >__> Damn that book.
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@Coin said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
All this is basically why it's actually way easier and more in-line with what @Wizz actually wants to make it be Forsaken Tribes with the Apocalypse Tribes as Lodges.
@Arkandel said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
@SunnyJ said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
@Arkandel I don't know about "the closest you can use a system the better it will be".
I misspoke (although you might still disagree with me of course). What I meant was "the closest you can use the easier it will be". If you use the nWoD GMC rules verbatim then it's at the easiest; if you are house ruling almost everything then it's probably harder than starting from scratch.
This is what I've been discovering the more I think about it. Rather than try to reinvent the entire damn wheel and shake up the entire structure of Renown, Moon Gifts, Wolf Gifts, Shadow Gifts that is all already built and there and basically balanced and functional, all I'm really doing is maybe changing the fluff and terminology and tacking some stuff on.
I'm basically eliminating the 1.0 Lodges entirely, calling the canon W:tF tribes Lodges and changing a lot of thematic stuff about them, and adding the W:tA Tribes as an additional social structure that maybe messes with some default CGen settings, adds some custom Shadow gifts, and lets people add flair and cool factor to their characters.
There really isn't a need to gut the entire system or stuff eight pounds of shit in a three pound bag.
All that said, @SunnyJ, @Arkandel and @Ganymede your enthusiasm for this is PUMPING ME UP YEEEEEEEAAAAHHHFHWFNFNENFIUFNUENGIU
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Now the ultimate question.
Can we Wyrm?
Edit: I lied, the ULTIMATE question is can we Snek?
Double edit: and the other fera, too, I GUESS.
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@Jennkryst
I mentioned in the OP that the Triat will be back! Wyrm cults will def be a thing.What I want to emphasize, though, is that the setting of Apocalypse has the Triat conflict dialed up past 11, it's a literal war. I'm not really a fan, in my hypothetical(ish) game they're dialed back to maybe a 3 or 4, most uratha aren't even going to be aware of them. Think more along the lines of the moments of brain-breaking discovery in Lovecraftian cosmic horror.
RE: DOUBLE EDIT: Not honestly sure how I would want to handle Fera/Changing Breeds. TBH I kind of...hate the nWoD Changing Breeds. I hate that they're a completely separate thing, I'd definitely want them to be more in line with the breeds mentioned in like, W:tF's War Against The Pure (I think???????) where they actually fit into Shadow cosmology and have Primal Urge and all that.
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The triat existing is not the same thing as allowing PCs to play Black Spiral Dancers.
I haven't read Beast, so I dunno if it could mesh. Must wait for 2e CB to hit.
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@Jennkryst said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
The triat existing is not the same thing as allowing PCs to play Black Spiral Dancers.
Nope, it's not. I don't really want them, nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupe. The cWoD books go to great, painful lengths to explain that allowing BSDs and fomor and all that as player characters has to be handled so, so carefully, and that's with them assuming you're at a table with like five-ish people you at least know kinda well. Literally every time I've personally seen them in a MU* setting (blah blah blah this is anecdotal blah blah blah) players use them to take huge, steaming shits on the game, just like Sabbat. I don't want it, it's the same reason I'd delete the Get. Allowing and managing Pure PCs is going to be hard enough.
EDIT: I know that there are players out there who can handle them well, that's not really the point. Just having them as an option invites a certain kind of toxic crazy people in the MU* community I don't want.
I haven't read Beast, so I dunno if it could mesh. Must wait for 2e CB to hit.
Not really looking at bringing Beast in...?
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@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
@Jennkryst
RE: DOUBLE EDIT: Not honestly sure how I would want to handle Fera/Changing Breeds. TBH I kind of...hate the nWoD Changing Breeds. I hate that they're a completely separate thing, I'd definitely want them to be more in line with the breeds mentioned in like, W:tF's War Against The Pure (I think???????) where they actually fit into Shadow cosmology and have Primal Urge and all that.As with other things, I would be willing to help bringing the Fera to CofD.
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@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
All that said, @SunnyJ, @Arkandel and @Ganymede your enthusiasm for this is PUMPING ME UP YEEEEEEEAAAAHHHFHWFNFNENFIUFNUENGIU
Good! Make it so.
I don't want to be a downer right after being an... upper? But! In most games, succeed or fail, it's the implementation that matters a lot more than the system or even theme.
Many great ideas live and die on wiki pages without reaching the grid in a recognizable fashion. Once you finalize your game's principles you should start thinking about how to make them work in-game; how plot will hit players, how PCs will realistically interact on a day to day basis, what will characters be doing.
If you need help brainstorming specific things like that we're here for ya.
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@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
This is what I've been discovering the more I think about it. Rather than try to reinvent the entire damn wheel and shake up the entire structure of Renown, Moon Gifts, Wolf Gifts, Shadow Gifts that is all already built and there and basically balanced and functional, all I'm really doing is maybe changing the fluff and terminology and tacking some stuff on.
I'm basically eliminating the 1.0 Lodges entirely, calling the canon W:tF tribes Lodges and changing a lot of thematic stuff about them, and adding the W:tA Tribes as an additional social structure that maybe messes with some default CGen settings, adds some custom Shadow gifts, and lets people add flair and cool factor to their characters.
I'm still not clear on what you're doing.
Turning the W:tF Tribes into Lodges is going to be problematic, I think, because the Five Tribes are sort of built into the game itself. I can kind of see how you could wedge the W:tA Tribes into the existing Tribes and calling them Lodges, I'm not as clearly seeing what you want to do with the W:tF Tribes.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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I THINK (or would guess/suggest) that the lodges are the social structure, with the base tribe you're a part of being just a mechanical bit, for the purpose of gifts and renown.
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@Jennkryst said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
I THINK (or would guess/suggest) that the lodges are the social structure, with the base tribe you're a part of being just a mechanical bit, for the purpose of gifts and renown.
Very well. If that's the case, then maybe changing the names of the Tribes would help. For consideration:
Archetypes
The Talon (Glory): The war is here; the Garou are ready. You rush forward into the fray with the intent not to capture or mollify, but to annihilate your foe. They will surrender or they will die. (Lodges: Fianna; Fenrir; Wendigo.)
The Shadow (Wisdom): There will always be darkness, and you are its master. From it, you learn the quiet things that no one knows, and use those secrets to undermine your enemies' efforts. You conduct the war wisely and safely, in secret and away from the light. (Lodges: Bone Gnawers; Silent Striders; Uktena.)
The Warden (Purity): Beset on all sides, only the purest of hearts and cleanest of souls will withstand the predations of the Weaver and the Wyrm. You keep the old ways, and protect the sacred sites from defilement. Gaia's most eldritch blessings are yours to command. (Lodges: Black Furies; Red Talons; Croatan.)
The Master (Cunning): Knowledge is useless without application. Application is wasteful, if not perfected. And if it is not perfect, it is not worth doing. You put into motion that which will not fail because you are the best, and the best don't fail. (Lodges: Glass Walkers; Shadow Lords; Stargazers.)
The Lord (Honor): Not everyone is destined to be an Alpha. Of all of the approaches, the Alpha must practice all. It is your way because it is the right way, and it is the right way because it is your way. You lead your pack to victory because it would never find it without you. (Lodges: Children of Gaia; Silver Fangs; White Howlers.)
Just some ideas.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede Bro, White Howlers, Honor?! We going with the 2e Highlander version of them instead of the rabid rawr 3e/W20?
Kidding aside, I like it!
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Let me reverse things a bit if that's okay.
These changes for the Tribes and whatnot - what's the goal here? What are you hoping to accomplish @Wizz ?
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@Ganymede said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
I'm still not clear on what you're doing.
Turning the W:tF Tribes into Lodges is going to be problematic, I think, because the Five Tribes are sort of built into the game itself. I can kind of see how you could wedge the W:tA Tribes into the existing Tribes and calling them Lodges, I'm not as clearly seeing what you want to do with the W:tF Tribes.I'm not 100% clear on it either so no worries. I'm just dissatisfied with Werewolf 2.0's Tribes, I think they're super myopic. Even in 1.0 I thought it was pretty weird for these same five groups to somehow exist all over the world with little to nothing changed about them, I want Werewolf to be something with a broader feel, that allows characters to come with more customization out of the gate and have some spiritual part of their lives that is not the Siskur-Dah.
In my mind, I think the W:tF Tribes with their sacred prey and vows and bans and all that sound more like religious lodges, so that's how I want to rewrite them. I'm not going to change anything mechanical about them.
Basically I want to go back to the more literal use of the term "tribe" from Apocalypse, a tribe would be determined largely by where and when they went through the First Change, who found them and taught them the basics of werewolf life. It's a tie that stays with them for the rest of their lives and wherever they go it's a social and spiritual bond they'll have with others, it's kind of a werewolf "nationality" without there being a literal werewolf "nation."
The canon Forsaken/Pure Tribes I see in my revised setting as being a more local phenomenon, they're really these intense religious cults that either worship or revile the Moon and have these suuuuper powerful totems and their conflict is something that other werewolves sort of get drawn into, to clarify: not all werewolves are inherently Forsaken or Pure, because their mythical history is really just a super strict interpretation of something no one was actually around for. There are some basic facts that all werewolves know ie, the Gauntlet exists, werewolves are the progeny of the Moon Goddess/God and a powerful prehistoric wolf spirit that is no longer around, spirits hate werewolves and generally don't have great intentions for the Fleshy Side but it's not always clear why. All the Tribes will have SOME version of the "This Story Is True" intro from the book, but almost all the versions are contradictory.
It is a very, very different take from the books and I understand it might not really work or make sense, it's just my first idea on how to approach the setting differently.
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@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
It is a very, very different take from the books and I understand it might not really work or make sense, it's just my first idea on how to approach the setting differently.
Okay.
So how do you envision this would translate in-game? Ideally what are the dynamics you would like to see between characters belonging to different tribes and the same one? How do they affect their everyday lives outside the pack? How does it impact packs made from PCs hailing from different tribes?
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
It is a very, very different take from the books and I understand it might not really work or make sense, it's just my first idea on how to approach the setting differently.
Okay.
So how do you envision this would translate in-game? Ideally what are the dynamics you would like to see between characters belonging to different tribes and the same one? How do they affect their everyday lives outside the pack? How does it impact packs made from PCs hailing from different tribes?
I suspect the same way it affects any group who follow an ideology but come from different places.
I still think the Five Tribes with old tribes as Lodges is better--especially since some religions/philosophies ARE globe-spanning (Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Shinto, Hinduism--on and on) and the population of the world's werewolves is small in comparison to mortals, so there only being 8-or-so "religions" is perfectly acceptable to me, especially if then there's like 13 Lodges that each put a spin on that. I think it works better. But mechanically it probably wouldn't matter which you put first, just which you base your mechanics on.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
