POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check

Social Diseases

@Thenomain said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

@Arkandel said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

@fatefan I don't know if any three of us who've posted here agreed on what 'this game' should be.

As long as I don't have to know thirty freaking years of comic book lore. I don't care if it's based on thirty freaking years of comic book lore

I used to trawl places like the Marvel Unofficial Appendix site looking for really minor characters I knew nobody would care if I fucked up, before I really got into comics.

Little did I know that on most places it wouldn't have been a problem if I'd decided to base a portrayal of Kitty Pryde entirely off of dialogue from bad girl on girl videos.

The Tree of Woe

@Tempest Exactly what I was thinking. To tell you the truth, I HATE big ass apps that take a ton of time and effort. All I'd want to give someone a PC is either a logged conversation or maybe a +job that touches on why the player likes that character and what they plan to DO with them along with maybe a few other things that staff can point at when they go inactive or go off the damn rails. 'Choo didn't keep your word, ese, 'choo don't get to keep playing Wolverine.

Dissertations not required, especially if there's a wikipage with a +sheet or powers writeups or whatever on it. Honestly I'd be happy with something as light as FASERIP as far as systems go...

The Tree of Woe

@Thenomain That's what wikis are freakin' FOR. You could even, with staff's help, come up with little association charts.

Psylocke LIKES: Cypher (saved her life from Mojo & Spiral), Brian Braddock (her older brother), Angel/Archangel (on-again off-again) Logan (drinking buddy).

Psylocke IT'S COMPLICATED: Fantomex (...really what more is needed)

Psylocke HATES: Sabretooth (almost killed her), Mojo (installed spy camera cyber-eyes in her face)

...If you can get quick access to the salient points you don't need a TON of gratuitous history.

The point being, Wikis are as easy to manipulate and access as MU*s are slow and kludgy and clumsy. Moving as much read-only info onto a wiki as you can seems like a net positive.

fatefan

@The-Tree-of-Woe Back at MXT 3.0 (? or so?), staff ran an experiment with CG that significantly trimmed down the traits-application process, replacing much of it with a question about what sorts of stories/plots a FC apper wanted to do/run.

People (read: supers MU* players in 2007 or so) seemed to fucking hate it, but it was an awesome idea.

The Tree of Woe

I don't know, maybe people like writing gigantic apps and I'm just barking up the wrong tree, but it seems like the easier you can make it on people and the easier you can make it on staff the happier everyone will be. I could be GLORIOUSLY wrong, of course. Gigantic apps do create a sense of "ownership" I suppose.

Thenomain

I was half-kidding, Tree. I will say that I love (adore, really) Movie Bob's "Comics Are Weird" videos that I haven't looked for in some time, but you did touch on two things that I wanted to reply to.

Having to leave the game to pull some simple information is stupid. Sorry, but if I'm looking up information on the, say, 'Better Stay Quiet' power modifier, I don't want to have to stop what I'm doing, cmd-tab over to the browser, cmd-t for a new tab, open the wiki, type in 'Better Stay Quiet' into the wiki's search area and hope beyond hope that some staffer put it in a sensible manner, when I could type stat better stay quiet and get the basics right then and there. (Hoping that someone put them in is the worst of it.)

I know there's been a recent push on these boards that Mu* help is teh ebil, but put information where the information is the most useful. Wiki is wonderful, but it's not a cure-all.

Who's Psylocke? Who's Fantomex? Why should I even care who Fantomex is? Am I in this example playing Psylocke? Then of course I'm looking at Psylocke wiki. (Man, I mis-spelled that name three times while typing this paragraph.) I know that there are people who don't, but that depends, as Social said, on how much the game runners care.

I care that people aren't going to berate me for not knowing who Psylocke (almost four typos) or Fantomex are.

The point being, Wikis are as easy to manipulate and access as MU*s are slow and kludgy and clumsy. Moving as much read-only info onto a wiki as you can seems like a net positive.

That's a broken point, but it's not my main concern. We can talk about what information should be information where, in general terms, in a less tangental thread if you'd like.

The Tree of Woe

Which I guess is a point of user interface disagreement between us. I find remembering fiddly little MUX commands to find something buried in the help absolutely befuddling, when I can just check the wiki for it. But I suppose that is a discussion for another place.

Thenomain

@The-Tree-of-Woe said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

I find remembering fiddly little MUX commands to find something buried in the help absolutely befuddling

Then someone didn't do their job well. Just because something is on a wiki doesn't mean it will be done right. I've hit the same issue of "where the hell is this?" on wiki after wiki. And the number of people who, on a channel designed to help, will answer "it's on the wiki" and get visibly snippy if you ask where on the wiki is another downside. I'm not going to blame wiki for this; I'm going to blame implementation.

Again, wiki is not a cure-all.

The Tree of Woe

@Thenomain Well there's that and that I find that for reading anything except a pose or maybe a desc, a MUX window is often itsy-bitsy, relatively speaking. Maybe I don't have my client set up correctly but that's always been the case. We probably won't agree here unless you want to take it to pistols at twenty paces or something.

Thenomain

@The-Tree-of-Woe

Yeah, but I'm often the person who has to make this level of decision, when I'm the coder. I try to impress on people that how information is available is dependent on what the information is. I am always concerned at making sure that the information makes as much sense and is as easy to find as possible. (I've always learned information defined as: Data that is Accessible & Timely.)

I am more than willing to change my own methods of garnering information, but unless staff assures the data is accessible to the average dunce, then who cares where it's kept?

I'm always looking for input, so in that sense there is no finality and therefore no "agreement". Only "improvement". This has never been an either/or debate.

The Tree of Woe

And I am not a coder, so I'm coming at it from the opposite direction. Remembering commands and understanding the way things are put together doesn't come easily to me. Just the opposite, in fact. So anything that I can access from outside of the MUX window itself seems like a net positive.

What is "easy" based on our experiences is different.

However, interface aside, what ways could the whole process be improved rather than doing the same things comic book MUXes have always done? That's the million-dollar question, I feel like.

Coin

@Thenomain said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

@The-Tree-of-Woe

Yeah, but I'm often the person who has to make this level of decision, when I'm the coder. I try to impress on people that how information is available is dependent on what the information is. I am always concerned at making sure that the information makes as much sense and is as easy to find as possible. (I've always learned information defined as: Data that is Accessible & Timely.)

I am more than willing to change my own methods of garnering information, but unless staff assures the data is accessible to the average dunce, then who cares where it's kept?

I'm always looking for input, so in that sense there is no finality and therefore no "agreement". Only "improvement". This has never been an either/or debate.

To be fair, @Thenomain, this is a contentious point you and I have always had passively: you as a coder are always looking for a way to do things how it makes sense to you, and while you're usually pretty good at asking me (when we work together) how I prefer it, sometimes you just like how it looks or feels one way from backstage when I absolutely hate the way it looks from the user point of view, and you do what you want. This is not me fist-shaking (I do that at you in private!) it's just pointing out that oftentimes coders make decisions from a coder point of view, when the BULK of the people using the code are not, in fact, coders.

I personally fucking loathe having all the info on the game. Honest to god, I hate typing MU commands to pull up sheets, help files, news files, boards... it all just clutters my god damned MU window, scrolls it, and often--if I am in a scene--rips me right out of it because suddenly the place where the scene was happening (the MU client window) has a bboard, or a help file, or a news file on it. I vastly prefer clicking on my Chrome and checking the wiki, then coming back to the client and reimmersing myself.

Thenomain

@Coin

And as a coder, I have to shoulder the responsibility of those decisions that I have to make. Let's be fair; you also hate it when I take extra time to make something as easy as possible on the user because it takes more time and that's time I can't use to do something else. What is being asked takes a metric fuck-tonne of time with the tools I'm using.

What you don't see is my process of exploration, the sometimes hours I take for information-gathering. I am, to be frank, a little put out that you don't consider this discussion here to be me focusing on problems that you--you personally, as well as you the reader in general--have not yet asked me to do.

What I mean to say to you and @The-Tree-of-Woe is that if you don't think I'm thinking of the end-user experience, then you are absolutely insane. I do things that make no sense to me all the time.

I ask of people like you (hating that I'm being put in the position of The Other by you two, by the way) is that you explain to me what your position is. And if I can do things I think is the wrong way to do things, if I can suck it up, then give me and other coders the respect that we are trying and that we are shouldering the things that you find are "the wrong way" for no other reason than because you think what we do is magic.

ProTip: It's a lot of fucking work. You're good at working with coders on a compromise and explaining yourself, @Coin, but in your agreeing with Tree I'm going to use that as a platform to swan dive into this. I did ask Tree that if he wanted to go down this path to make this a different thread, but nnnooOOOooo, and so you get this rant here, this rant that I hold in every time this comes up. I hold it in because as a coder I have to shoulder the responsibility of those decisions that I have to make.

I hear this quietly from other coders, too. I know @Chime left Mu* coding because she got tired of people not respecting even the most basic of miracles. I know @faraday has openly said this is why she keeps partially quitting Soapbox. Hell, even @Cobaltasaurus left here because people would rather tell you what you're doing wrong than trying to make it right.

So no, @Coin, I don't code on my own whim. I code on a lot of information and I try to do things right by as many people as possible. I'm sorry that you absolutely can't stand some aspects of the Tiny platform. I'm sorry that there aren't enough hours (or ponies) in the day. I'm sorry that I don't make a big deal out of how hard this shit is so that you and The Others get complacent that when I say something like "this is the wrong way to approach the problem" you think I'm saying that because I'm lazy or ignorant or ignoring the end-user.

Hopefully this will fix some of that. If not, then whatever. This took a half hour of my day, but I thought it was important not for me, but for your edification. I might be wrong, but at least I tried. And maybe @The-Tree-of-Woe can't understand that this is to help bridge understanding, but I know sure as hell that you aren't this dense.

Being dense is my job.

Coin

@Thenomain said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

@Coin

And as a coder, I have to shoulder the responsibility of those decisions that I have to make. Let's be fair; you also hate it when I take extra time to make something as easy as possible on the user because it takes more time and that's time I can't use to do something else. What is being asked takes a metric fuck-tonne of time with the tools I'm using.

What you don't see is my process of exploration, the sometimes hours I take for information-gathering. I am, to be frank, a little put out that you don't consider this discussion here to be me focusing on problems that you--you personally, as well as you the reader in general--have not yet asked me to do.

What I mean to say to you and @The-Tree-of-Woe is that if you don't think I'm thinking of the end-user experience, then you are absolutely insane. I do things that make no sense to me all the time.

I ask of people like you (hating that I'm being put in the position of The Other by you two, by the way) is that you explain to me what your position is. And if I can do things I think is the wrong way to do things, if I can suck it up, then give me and other coders the respect that we are trying and that we are shouldering the things that you find are "the wrong way" for no other reason than because you think what we do is magic.

ProTip: It's a lot of fucking work. You're good at working with coders on a compromise and explaining yourself, @Coin, but in your agreeing with Tree I'm going to use that as a platform to swan dive into this. I did ask Tree that if he wanted to go down this path to make this a different thread, but nnnooOOOooo, and so you get this rant here, this rant that I hold in every time this comes up. I hold it in because as a coder I have to shoulder the responsibility of those decisions that I have to make.

I hear this quietly from other coders, too. I know @Chime left Mu* coding because she got tired of people not respecting even the most basic of miracles. I know @faraday has openly said this is why she keeps partially quitting Soapbox. Hell, even @Cobaltasaurus left here because people would rather tell you what you're doing wrong than trying to make it right.

So no, @Coin, I don't code on my own whim. I code on a lot of information and I try to do things right by as many people as possible. I'm sorry that you absolutely can't stand some aspects of the Tiny platform. I'm sorry that there aren't enough hours (or ponies) in the day. I'm sorry that I don't make a big deal out of how hard this shit is so that you and The Others get complacent that when I say something like "this is the wrong way to approach the problem" you think I'm saying that because I'm lazy or ignorant or ignoring the end-user.

Hopefully this will fix some of that. If not, then whatever. This took a half hour of my day, but I thought it was important not for me, but for your edification. I might be wrong, but at least I tried. And maybe @The-Tree-of-Woe can't understand that this is to help bridge understanding, but I know sure as hell that you aren't this dense.

Being dense is my job.

I think you're taking it too personally.

I absolutely do understand the amount of effort and time you put into it, which is why I don't routinely get mad about stuff when we disagree on implementation. It's also why I don't learn to do it myself. I lack the patience.

My point is more that I think at least some of the time you put emphasis on things that other people consider irrelevant, and vice versa.

If I didn't think you put your best foot forward when we work together on projects, I just wouldn't work with you. We're both people with social issues that make communication a fucking hassle, so instead of being put-out by the above, just remember you're my codey-bear.

[ducks]

Thenomain

@Coin said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

I think you're taking it too personally.

Only a little. I think it was something that needed to be said. Really, let me summarize what I saw Tree saying. (This is not an actual quote)

I don't like doing things this way therefore you can't do it the way you like to do it

Fine, whatever, ignorance, but when someone I respect for thinking things through agrees with that then it's time to clear the air. As I'm not a writer, it all comes out in thought-ramblings that may look more personal than they are. Except for the "The Other" comment; seriously, peeps, this is a hobby to us as well.

Back to a real quote:

@Coin said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

My point is more that I think at least some of the time you put emphasis on things that other people consider irrelevant, and vice versa.

And my point is that they may seem irrelevant to you, but you're not the person on the spot who has to decide, with all they know, what "relevant" means.

(edit as a note to would-be coders: If you make this decision without asking around, you are a shitty coder; our job is to facilitate the game, as is every staffer's job--this forum was originally based on outing staffers who put themselves and their friends before the game so don't be that person. What is "relevant" is based on the game, not you.)

For fuck's sake, dude, this tangent started because I said that it's a pain in my ass to hit up a wiki for one line's worth of information. This was even explained using words and examples! It would be super-duper cool if someone made a GUI for Mu*, that allowed a web site to be pulled up concurrent with the text input/output window, but here we are for now.

By "here" I mean "as long as I'm the coder, information will be available in-game, even if it's also available out-of-game."

We're both people with social issues that make communication a fucking hassle, so instead of being put-out by the above, just remember you're my codey-bear.

...

Your mom was a fucking hassle.

Coin

@Thenomain said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

@Coin said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

I think you're taking it too personally.

Only a little. I think it was something that needed to be said. Really, let me summarize what I saw Tree saying. (This is not an actual quote)

I don't like doing things this way therefore you can't do it the way you like to do it

Fine, whatever, ignorance, but when someone I respect for thinking things through agrees with that then it's time to clear the air. As I'm not a writer, it all comes out in thought-ramblings that may look more personal than they are. Except for the "The Other" comment; seriously, peeps, this is a hobby to us as well.

Back to a real quote:

@Coin said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

My point is more that I think at least some of the time you put emphasis on things that other people consider irrelevant, and vice versa.

And my point is that they may seem irrelevant to you, but you're not the person on the spot who has to decide, with all they know, what "relevant" means.

For fuck's sake, dude, this tangent started because I said that it's a pain in my ass to hit up a wiki for one line's worth of information. This was even explained using words and examples! It would be super-duper cool if someone made a GUI for Mu*, that allowed a web site to be pulled up concurrent with the text input/output window, but here we are for now.

By "here" I mean "as long as I'm the coder, information will be available in-game, even if it's also available out-of-game."

We're both people with social issues that make communication a fucking hassle, so instead of being put-out by the above, just remember you're my codey-bear.

...

...

Your mom was a fucking hassle.

I actually don't mind the information being in game. I would just like for it to also be available off-site. That way we both win.

See? I can compromise.

My mom is a fucking hassle. She can't open a fucking Chrome window without downloading three viruses and fifty seven malware bugs.

Fuck. I have to pay a visit today again.

God dammit.

Thenomain

@Coin said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

I actually don't mind the information being in game. I would just like for it to also be available off-site. That way we both win.

And this is why @Chime's wiki-to-mux help and news reader makes her a goddess. She has berated me before for thinking inside the Softcode Box before, and she's absolutely right.

My mom is a fucking hassle. She can't open a fucking Chrome window without downloading three viruses and fifty seven malware bugs.

Fuck. I have to pay a visit today again.

God dammit.

Have you considered AdBlock Plus and a machine to smack her knuckles every time she clicks a link? Maybe a firewall rule against any "driver update" website would help, too.

Coin

@Thenomain said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

@Coin said in POLL: Super Hero MU Gut Check:

I actually don't mind the information being in game. I would just like for it to also be available off-site. That way we both win.

And this is why @Chime's wiki-to-mux help and news reader makes her a goddess. She has berated me before for thinking inside the Softcode Box before, and she's absolutely right.

My mom is a fucking hassle. She can't open a fucking Chrome window without downloading three viruses and fifty seven malware bugs.

Fuck. I have to pay a visit today again.

God dammit.

Have you considered AdBlock Plus and a machine to smack her knuckles every time she clicks a link? Maybe a firewall rule against any "driver update" website would help, too.

She already has Ad-Block plus but I suspect there's some really well-hidden malware somewhere that disables it.

Also, she downloads torrents so--LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Social Diseases

I like having everything right there on the MUSH.

The Tree of Woe

@Thenomain I will apologize for making you feel Othered, that was not my intent. I come here to let my hair down a bit and stop being nice, it gets away from me sometimes.

In the end I can concede that there are benefits to stuff being accessible off the game itself without having to head to another window, and some people do just function better that way.