Regarding administration on MSB

[surreality]

@rnmissionrun said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Granted, it's much worse in the MU* community given it's smaller size but I think this is due to the fact that we, as a community, are not well people. It speaks volumes about the state of our community when the only forum for open discussion of MUs and MUing focuses so heavily on vengeance, shaming and WrongFun. It's no wonder there are so few new people coming into the hobby. Between the general toxicity of the community and the craziness of so many of the folks running games, it's a wonder there are any active games left at all.

See, I'm just not seeing this, either. I have to sit over with @ixokai on this one.

The game I was on most recently isn't exactly a stranger to drama. Did I run into some annoying people? Sure did. Was it any better or worse than in the days before WORA?

Oh, wow, there's not even a comparison. So much better, there just aren't words. And some of that is because we've become more aware as a society, but a lot more of it is because people in the hobby have grown considerably and realized certain things that once were the norm are not a good idea to allow at all.

And maybe, some day, a forum where no one is allowed to say anything negative or mean will be one of those things.

It is clearly not going to be today.

Those changes took time. They evolved. None were the result of someone stomping a foot and saying, "No one is allowed to say mean things any more because that's not OK!"

That people are even engaging in civil discourse about this is an improvement; the level of mockery and vitriol that sentiment would have stirred once upon a time would have been legendary and resulted in the kinds of stories the old farts would still be talking about today, like folks do about the drinking game, or the 'rules of good staffing'.

The wall you're going to hit is not a matter of forum culture, though, or MUX culture. It's the wall of human nature.

Maybe y'all live in a world that's sunshine and rainbows and positivity, but from the sound of things, that's not the case. Shaming or strong-arming people who have different sensitivities and sensibilities and want to engage in a different way than you do is not going to bring about that change, it's negativity in its own right and will breed negativity in return.

[ixokai]

@rnmissionrun said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Granted, it's much worse in the MU* community given it's smaller size but I think this is due to the fact that we, as a community, are not well people. It speaks volumes about the state of our community when the only forum for open discussion of MUs and MUing focuses so heavily on vengeance, shaming and WrongFun. It's no wonder there are so few new people coming into the hobby. Between the general toxicity of the community and the craziness of so many of the folks running games, it's a wonder there are any active games left at all.

I take so much issue with this.

"We, as a community, are not well people" <-- checks part of forum Fork you. It has nothing to do with that. What it has to do with is this is an OLD hobby, and the people here are more then likely to have been it in what can be counted in decades.

And oh, the things we have seen.

So we are harsh and skeptical and quick to the gun, because again, oh, what we have seen. In many ways, IMHO, the abuses of this day-- like everything accused about UH-- are almost quaint. Spying on players? Abusive, harassing creepers? This is familiar, old territory. Oh, its BAD, and what you see in this negative realm is us saying SUCK GO AWAY. But I remember much, much worse.

I've seen MUCH worse in the MMORPG community. I've seen doxing, I've seen personal, out-of-community threats, threats of both horrific violence and unspeakable things done to people. For very small issues.

The vast majority of the negativity here will come down to, 'I think you are a fucking idiot', with everyone saying that every way.

If you're really thinking this is a special level of negativity, worse then others, I have serious questions about your experience and history elsewhere.

But this, "Are not well people" thing, ... I can't frame a response that is useful in Mostly Constructive, but if you imagine a F and an Off, you'll get the idea.

[ixokai]

Seriously people, when is the last time on this board you saw someone threaten to rape someone for their views?

I ask you because seeing that threat in MMORPG's wouldn't even surprise me.

To call this community special in its negativity is a lack of perspective.

[faraday]

@ixokai said in Regarding administration on MSB:

That doesn't mean no one has a negative experience. But I deny this pervading negative aura that lays heavy over the hobby.

That's fine. I'm not on a crusade to convince you otherwise. But I'm entitled to my opinion based on my experiences as much as you are. There's a reason I only run co-op, niche, borderline-sandbox games.

ETA: I don't participate in MMO communities either because they are even more negative. The fact that something worse exists somewhere is irrelevant IMHO.

[surreality]

@ixokai Actually, that Rick Sanchez dude did that to me.

And the whole forum ripped him to shreds for it even after he was banned, including the people who he had previously palled around with on here.

Kinda says a lot about the kind of shit this community is not keen on tolerating.

[ixokai]

@faraday said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@ixokai said in Regarding administration on MSB:

That doesn't mean no one has a negative experience. But I deny this pervading negative aura that lays heavy over the hobby.

That's fine. I'm not on a crusade to convince you otherwise. But I'm entitled to my opinion based on my experiences as much as you are. There's a reason I only run co-op, niche, borderline-sandbox games.

God, I hate this response. "I'm entitled to my opinion." It suggests, passive-aggressively, that someone suggested you aren't. "That's your experience, but mine is different", again, suggests, passive-aggressively, that someone stating THEIR experience was declaring yours was invalid.

People expressing different views is communication.

EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE.

Sharing experiences is COMMUNICATION.

When someone feels a need to be entitled to their opinion, what I hear is: I'm entitled to my own facts.

If it were just an opinion, there'd be no need to state it (EDIT TO ADD: that it is their enshrined, unapproachable opinion). In any discussion its automatically assumed everyone has their own opinions. Isn't that what discussion is? I express, you express, we debate.

"I'm entitled to my own opinion" is this steel wall put out which has this implication right next to it: "and thus you challenging it are wrong to do so. Discussion over.".

Or I'm an idiot, quite likely. But that's what I hear to those words.

[ixokai]

@surreality said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@ixokai Actually, that Rick Sanchez dude did that to me.

And the whole forum ripped him to shreds for it even after he was banned, including the people who he had previously palled around with on here.

Kinda says a lot about the kind of shit this community is not keen on tolerating.

Yikes, I didn't know that. Good we responded well. But like, this shit is COMMON in other communities of gamers on the net. Its horrible.

MUSHers-are-worst is not a thing I'm gonna get behind. Its flatly unsupportable. For all our faults, and oh, we have them, this isn't 4chan.

[faraday]

@ixokai said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Or I'm an idiot, quite likely. But that's what I hear to those words.

I seriously did not mean to be passive-aggressive and I certainly did not mean you're an idiot. You replied with a number of particularly emphatic points that sounded to me like you were stating them as objective fact. I was merely attempting to say that we have different opinions based on our experiences.

But this is kinda exactly the sort of thing I'm complaining about. I state an opinion about the generic hobby as a whole and get comments like "I have serious questions about your experience and history elsewhere" and a personal rant calling me passive aggressive. Seriously?

[ixokai]

@faraday said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@ixokai said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Or I'm an idiot, quite likely. But that's what I hear to those words.

I seriously did not mean to be passive-aggressive and I certainly did not mean you're an idiot. You replied with a number of particularly emphatic points that sounded to me like you were stating them as objective fact. I was merely attempting to say that we have different opinions based on our experiences.

But this is kinda exactly the sort of thing I'm complaining about. I state an opinion about the generic hobby as a whole and get comments like "I have serious questions about your experience and history elsewhere" and a personal rant calling me passive aggressive. Seriously?

The moment you use the term "rant", tells me you are not responding in an emotionally-neutral stance. YOU state an opinion, and its stating an opinion. (Granted, couched in: I AM ENTITLED to my opinion). I state an opinion, its a rant.

Seriously.

[ixokai]

Augh, browser fail

[faraday]

@ixokai Uh yeah, when you start the response with "God I hate (your) response...", shout at me in all caps, and accuse me of being passive-aggressive and putting up a steel wall to discussion, I consider that a rant. What's your definition?

[ixokai]

@faraday said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@ixokai Uh yeah, when you start the response with "God I hate (your) response...", shout at me in all caps, and accuse me of being passive-aggressive and putting up a steel wall to discussion, I consider that a rant. What's your definition?

My definition is that you're not willing to have an honest discussion. You didn't have anything to say about the content, only the form. You can't manage any other response, or don't care to. Very well.

[surreality]

@faraday Why is it not OK for him honestly to state his feelings about your response by saying he hates that response?

How and why is it different from the exchange earlier, in which you said both examples would be hurtful to you, I posted a contrary experience of my own feelings with acknowledgement and understanding that yours is different, and you came back with a universal statement that very clearly intimates that your perception and feeling is the only correct one? I have to admit, that looked like throwing up a metaphorical wall through which no further productive discussion can occur to me, too, only a trotting out of a contest of extremes as blatant strawmen.

If you want people to listen to your experiences and respect your perspective and feelings about a subject, you should ideally be willing to reciprocate that respect and understanding without ascribing negative connotations to their own experiences and expressions of their feelings and perspective.

[RnMissionRun]

By no means did I mean to imply that MUSHers are any worse than any other group of people on the net. I meant it was worse because the hobby is based around cooperative storytelling, and most of us seem to accept things such as inclusion and acceptance of others as virtues. You wouldn't think that such a community would be so damned hostile.

[surreality]

@rnmissionrun That I'll agree with -- in the sense that I'm optimistic enough that I think people do strive to embrace those virtues.

The hostility is, from all I have perceived of it over time, basic human behavior. Generally, people acting like high schoolers. Which was fine when most of the people in the hobby were actually in high school or early college, but has lingered more than it ideally should.

I don't see things going any different in any other aspect of life, though. That we have these arguments without the endless rape threats, political bomb-throwing, or even more 'lol k' shitposting than we have already speaks volumes for the integrity and intelligence of the community, regardless.

[faraday]

@surreality said in Regarding administration on MSB:

How and why is it different from the exchange earlier,

The difference is in the tone. I do not believe I attacked you personally (and if I did, I apologize for I did not intend to). I just expressed a different opinion.

Sometimes people have polar opposite opinions. I believe it's ok to say "I think you're wrong" or "I understand that's your opinion based on your experiences but my experiences have been different" as long as it's done respectfully and civilly. That, of course, is also a matter of opinion and on this forum really only the moderators' opinions matter as to what constitutes being over the line.

[Wizz]

@surreality said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Those changes took time. They evolved. None were the result of someone stomping a foot and saying, "No one is allowed to say mean things any more because that's not OK!"

OK, boiling down the whole argument to "I don't like it when people are mean" is not what @faraday or I are talking about and it's a little condescending that that is what you and @ixokai are trying to make it about. For my part, I also wasn't trying to apply some weird equivalence of the behavior here and on WORA to the entire, full-stop, MU*ing community and literally everyone in it. (If you haven't encountered it there, wow, great. That's a genuinely a good thing, no sarcasm intended at all.)

I mean, you either see it, or you don't. You either recognize the attitude that exists here as a problem, or you don't. I really don't care to try and convince you if you don't, that's not my goal.

Ultimately I think the purpose this whole conversation serves is to show what percentage of the board feels one way or the other, which to be honest is also a great barometer for "whether or not this iteration of the forum is a good fit for you."

[faraday]

@wizz said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Ultimately I think the purpose this whole conversation serves is to show what percentage of the board feels one way or the other, which to be honest is also a great barometer for "whether or not this iteration of the forum is a good fit for you."

Agreed. And I don't know how to resolve that. (ETA: Well, ultimately the mods will just pick one. I'm just speaking hypothetically here.)

We haven't heard from the majority of the people. We have a couple vocal people on both sides of the argument.

We have people who would leave if there weren't a Hog Pit. That is a fact.

We have people who don't come here at all, or are leery of posting anything here, because there is. That is also a fact.

Which is the majority? I honestly don't know. I do think that pointing to "well hog pit has more posts" is not really a valid benchmark of what the activity could be if the board had a better reputation across the community and more people weren't afraid of being piled on for posting a dissenting opinion.

[RnMissionRun]

@ixokai said in Regarding administration on MSB:

But this, "Are not well people" thing, ... I can't frame a response that is useful in Mostly Constructive, but if you imagine a F and an Off, you'll get the idea.

I'm sorry if I struck a nerve, but I stand by that statement.

[krmbm]

@faraday said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Which is the majority? I honestly don't know. I do think that pointing to "well hog pit has more posts" is not really a valid benchmark of what the activity could be if the board had a better reputation across the community and more people weren't afraid of being piled on for posting a dissenting opinion.

We could argue that we don't know what the activity could be if the board theme was rainbow unicorns with three heads made out of chainsaws.

What we know is that the people here use the Hog Pit more than any other forum. Invalidating actual statistics because they don't agree with your side of the argument is a pretty shitty way to argue.