How should IC discrimination be handled?

[Collective]

@faraday

Thank you for the honest and enlightening reply.

[Apos]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@apos

So, I'm curious. What's your threshold for the amount of IC abuse that's okay and doesn't need a disclaimer? I thought we were at the point in the discussion where folks were saying that as long as everything is IC, we're all good?

When I think that it is not exceedingly unlikely someone would reasonably encounter it IC. For example, most games allow sexual activity- a few have rules specifically trying to ban TS. However, most also have rules that prohibit graphic sexual scenes in public rooms. I think it is misleading to make a big disclaimer saying that a game has strong sexual content under those circumstances, because the implication would be it is a sex orientated game, when it is not.

What kind of disclaimers do you make for games you've run, and what themes did they have?

[faraday]

Sorry for the double-post but one other thought about ratings... Some of it comes down to the theme as well as the rating.

Period sexism in PG-13 Wonder Woman wasn't surprising or upsetting because it was a respectful and important part of the story. But if Hawkeye were to start spouting random homophobic nonsense in a PG-13 Avengers movie, that would be pretty WTF, right?

[Collective]

@apos said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@apos

So, I'm curious. What's your threshold for the amount of IC abuse that's okay and doesn't need a disclaimer? I thought we were at the point in the discussion where folks were saying that as long as everything is IC, we're all good?

When I think that it is not exceedingly unlikely someone would reasonably encounter it IC.

Okay, this is what I'm getting at. Let me approach it from another angle, if you'll be patient with me on this.

Is there such a thing as a character that you find too bigoted for the good of the game? Even assuming the player is lily-pure and has absolutely none of the baggage of the character she's portraying, is there a limit to how nasty and abusive, entirely in character, you'd allow?

[Collective]

@faraday

I don't recall a lot of people, if any people, even the villains, calling Wonder Woman a whore, bitch, slut, etc, in that movie. And yet the period sexism was portrayed quite nicely.

[faraday]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

I don't recall a lot of people, if any people, even the villains, calling Wonder Woman a whore, bitch, slut, etc, in that movie. And yet the period sexism was portrayed quite nicely.

Exactly. Because it was PG-13 rating and a comic book movie theme. If it were an R-rated movie with more of a historical bent, would you have been surprised if that stuff had been turned up?

To use another movie example: Magnificent Seven (PG-13) versus Django Unchained (R). Both have extremely different 'takes' on period -isms.

[Apos]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@apos said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@apos

So, I'm curious. What's your threshold for the amount of IC abuse that's okay and doesn't need a disclaimer? I thought we were at the point in the discussion where folks were saying that as long as everything is IC, we're all good?

When I think that it is not exceedingly unlikely someone would reasonably encounter it IC.

Okay, this is what I'm getting at. Let me approach it from another angle, if you'll be patient with me on this.

Is there such a thing as a character that you find too bigoted for the good of the game? Even assuming the player is lily-pure and has absolutely none of the baggage of the character she's portraying, is there a limit to how nasty and abusive, entirely in character, you'd allow?

Of course, absolutely. I think I've said as much in other posts, when in the same place I said I wouldn't allow serial killer characters, if I think a concept is too disruptive, it's too disruptive. Even in a fantasy game of fantasy prejudice against fictional people, if I think a character would ruin the fun of all the players of that type there is absolutely no way I'd okay it.

Let me go a step further. I don't think outliers like that are even much of an issue at all. I think what Faraday was trying to get at earlier, and it seemed like no one responded to, was that the more nuanced problems that come up are ones that people will debate endlessly, and put characters in very difficult situations that people can argue either way, and someone -will- take personally. Those are the ones that this board is zero help with addressing but the actual ones that have to be dealt with. Here, let me give an example.

Someone is playing a historical western MU. Great, fine. Sodomy is technically a crime. The sheriff PC is not in any ways generated as a homophobe, and likely doesn't even care about that. Two PC characters have sex in public and get caught, because #thatstheirfetish. Some other PCs imply that if the sheriff isn't going to keep the streets clean, he should lose his job. Other PCs think that the reason it's not a slap on the wrist is due to homophobia, and want the Sheriff to sweep it under the rug. What should he do?

You can modify the same situation a hundred different ways with different degrees. Maybe it was in private. Maybe nothing happened and it's just a rumor because some character wants to discredit another. Maybe it would be treated the same way as if the characters were straight. Maybe they were mixed race and adds another bit of cultural baggage to the mix. Maybe the sheriff already let some trivial incident go by, and if he does so again, he's done. You can modify all of these on an unending scale of how reasonable or unreasonable each person is, and how you perceive them.

So what does staff do for those situations? THOSE are the ones that staff actually deals with, not, 'hurr durr someone used a slur'. That stuff is so easily resolved it is a non issue. The above is way more common, and it is -not-, and does not in any way involve, 'oh sure I allowed some player to make a homophobe.'

[Collective]

@faraday

If I understand you here, you're essentially saying that just telling people your game has an R-rating is sufficient for them to understand that ICly speaking, it's fair game on minorities?

[faraday]

@collective No, I was trying to say it was a combination of rating and theme.

[Collective]

@faraday said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@collective No, I was trying to say it was a combination of rating and theme.

Ah. Fair enough. Again, thank you for clarifying that.

I have to admit, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play on a game where the theme and setting made that kind of behavior appropriate, but I suppose that kind of game has some merit for some folks.

[Collective]

@apos

With no disrespect intended, assuming the folks involved weren't going at it in public (which is inappropriate in pretty much every MU that isn't sex oriented), then if the sheriff doesn't have more important things to do with their time, then there would seem, to me, to be a major failure on the part of the plot staff and players.

And I guess this illustrates what I find so frustrating talking to gamers about topics like this. Because even in an old west setting, I find few people who will set up a typhoid and smallpox plague generator that would strike indiscriminately but everybody wants to make sure that characters can express their disapproval of those who aren't just like the majority of the people playing characters.

This isn't me calling out a hypothetical game runner as being a bigot, by the way. I'm not saying that at all.

What I am saying is that we, all of us, have a cultural bias towards flinging crap at the people who less empowered in our society and feeling that the ability, even a right to do so, is natural and okay, even in our shared play time.

[Apos]

@collective Also with no disrespect intended, but in my experience the sheriff WOULD have more important things to do with his time, staff would already be providing that, and the other players would give absolutely zero fucks about how miserable this makes the sheriff in having to deal with a non issue being repeatedly hammered home.

[Ganymede]

@faraday said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

If it were an R-rated movie with more of a historical bent, would you have been surprised if that stuff had been turned up?

I would expect there to be some sort of reason why the writers and directors chose to use that language, rather than engage in a similar, effective portrayal that did not use the language. And I may or may not disagree as to whether that choice was arbitrary.

[Arkandel]

@apos said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

Other PCs think that the reason it's not a slap on the wrist is due to homophobia, and want the Sheriff to sweep it under the rug. What should he do?

Opinions on what the Sheriff should do may vary, and for good reason.

What I want to see is the Sheriff's player not being forced into an IC action due to OOC reasons, such as reactions by other players. Especially if staff doesn't give him a direction and leaves the player to face the backlash.

[Collective]

@apos Even in real life, even in the old west, law enforcement officials tell people things aren't/weren't worth their time and effort.

[faraday]

@collective said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

I have to admit, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play on a game where the theme and setting made that kind of behavior appropriate, but I suppose that kind of game has some merit for some folks.

That's fair. And just to be clear - even on Sweetwater (a western) with its TV-MA rating, I personally would not have tolerated people randomly going around spouting slurs at other characters. Because as @Apos said, that crap is just disruptive no matter how thematic it may be. And as @Ganymede pointed out - you can get across prejudice without resorting to vulgarity if it is indeed important to the character or the story.

The problems I had with that setting weren't nitwits running around dropping n-words like f-bombs. That just never happened even on a game where IC discrimination was allowed. The problems were more like what @Apos described, where modern sensibilities butted up against historical laws and expectations.

And yes, of course, you could just say "Yo, there's no law against <xyz> in this game even though there totally was iRL". You could put a tolerant sheriff in place who doesn't give a crap. You can just go full-on alt-history. But it's nonetheless a problem that will crop up and can easily lead to more subtle forms of IC nastiness.

[Collective]

@faraday said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:
But it's nonetheless a problem that will crop up and can easily lead to more subtle forms of IC nastiness.

To go back to my Sunday school days, back in the Precambrian era, 'Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.'

In other words, if the cost of limiting overt abuse is the possibility of covert abuse, I think I'd take that gamble.

[Ganymede]

@apos said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

So what does staff do for those situations? THOSE are the ones that staff actually deals with, not, 'hurr durr someone used a slur'. That stuff is so easily resolved it is a non issue. The above is way more common, and it is -not-, and does not in any way involve, 'oh sure I allowed some player to make a homophobe.'

I disagree.

One case arose recently on Fallcoast. Sonder took steps to address the "hurr hurr someone used a slur" problem quickly.

Another case arose less recently on Fear & Loathing. Staff took no steps to immediately address the "people are engaging in passive-aggressive, disrespectful bullshit OOC chatter-mongering in public that's destroying a group's desire to stay and play on the game."

And then, there's here.

My experience on games as staff is that I get far more complaints about the OOC nastiness and pettiness than any character-altering IC choice.

But, see, you get to play with Arx players, and I tend to get relegated to the WoD slums.

sigh

[Apos]

@arkandel said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@apos said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

Other PCs think that the reason it's not a slap on the wrist is due to homophobia, and want the Sheriff to sweep it under the rug. What should he do?

Opinions on what the Sheriff should do may vary, and for good reason.

What I want to see is the Sheriff's player not being forced into an IC action due to OOC reasons, such as reactions by other players. Especially if staff doesn't give him a direction and leaves the player to face the backlash.

There's not a lot of good options for that staff side, even. For example, a leader does something bold/risky. At what point is dogpiling on it inappropriate? If you have 60 characters that all have Strong Feelings about it, that player is going to be well and truly miserable by scene #7 of someone bringing up how they Strongly They Disagree, let alone scene #60. Or do you just tell people they aren't allowed to RP about something? Do you then oocly punish players that persist, even if they just don't got the memo, or make some passing reference to a storyline that has an IC authority figure about to quit the game?

Let me be blunt, @Collective - it is VASTLY more common to use edgy themes as an excuse to beat up IC authority figures than it is to bully PCs of that type. Like it's not even close. And I'm telling you that the whole, 'someone called a character a slur' isn't even on the radar of most players and staff because a single edgy player is not even remotely an issue. What IS an issue is someone trying to create a story that can be argued either way, and then players getting feelings about it.

Here, let's give another example. Old West storyline. A black PC goes for a job as a deputy, do you punish the sheriff for saying no?

[Collective]

@apos said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@arkandel said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@apos said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

Other PCs think that the reason it's not a slap on the wrist is due to homophobia, and want the Sheriff to sweep it under the rug. What should he do?

Opinions on what the Sheriff should do may vary, and for good reason.

What I want to see is the Sheriff's player not being forced into an IC action due to OOC reasons, such as reactions by other players. Especially if staff doesn't give him a direction and leaves the player to face the backlash.

There's not a lot of good options for that staff side, even. For example, a leader does something bold/risky. At what point is dogpiling on it inappropriate? If you have 60 characters that all have Strong Feelings about it, that player is going to be well and truly miserable by scene #7 of someone bringing up how they Strongly They Disagree, let alone scene #60. Or do you just tell people they aren't allowed to RP about something? Do you then oocly punish players that persist, even if they just don't got the memo, or make some passing reference to a storyline that has an IC authority figure about to quit the game?

Let me be blunt, @Collective - it is VASTLY more common to use edgy themes as an excuse to beat up IC authority figures than it is to bully PCs of that type.

Again, with all due respect, I assure you that those of us who don't feel like we should have to make our characters straight or white or male in games if we don't want to deal with abuse aren't being 'edgy'.