I still consider Evennia a MUD-like because, as you said earlier, it's not a game installation, but a framework in which you can create a game.
Ares is mostly MUD-like, but works very hard not to show it.
The built-in interpreter, that you can code from the inside, is what I use to classify a MUSH-like game.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@thenomain said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Ares is mostly MUD-like, but works very hard not to show it.
The built-in interpreter, that you can code from the inside, is what I use to classify a MUSH-like game.
:grins and shrugs: You're free to classify it however you want. Ares has nothing even vaguely MUD-like about it as far as I'm concerned.
@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:
@thenomain said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Ares is mostly MUD-like, but works very hard not to show it.
The built-in interpreter, that you can code from the inside, is what I use to classify a MUSH-like game.:grins and shrugs: You're free to classify it however you want. Ares has nothing even vaguely MUD-like about it as far as I'm concerned.
Okay?
I mean...thanks?
Or...dude, I don't even know what this was for. We already knew how you classify Ares. I disagree with your disagreeing. Go us.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@thenomain said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Or...dude, I don't even know what this was for.
I don't like seeing it classified as MUD-like. I think that's misleading and potentially damaging to someone who doesn't know anything about it and sees that description and might go "Eew, not for me". To someone who's not coding (i.e. 99% of the players), virtually all of the everyday commands from Penn/Tiny will work for them.
I think Faraday's right and Ares isn't MUD-like at all; a MUD user would feel far less at home there than a MUSHer would. A Diku or LP user would feel lost on BSU, while someone coming from a Penn-based FS3 game would feel right at home.
But beyond that: I feel like people assume "MUD-like" has character levels, advancement between those levels, coded equipment, mobs that you can fight in an automated manner, etc. Which doesn't match either Ares or, honestly, the vast majority of the Evennia-based games I've seen.
@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:
@thenomain said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Or...dude, I don't even know what this was for.
I don't like seeing it classified as MUD-like. I think that's misleading and potentially damaging to someone who doesn't know anything about it and sees that description and might go "Eew, not for me". To someone who's not coding (i.e. 99% of the players), virtually all of the everyday commands from Penn/Tiny will work for them.
:grins and shrugs: You're free to classify it however you-- nononononono, nonsense. If you don't think it deserves to be classified that way, then no, I'm not free to classify it however I want. Or to put it another way: No, everyone is not entitled to their own opinion.
Sometimes we don't get to be the master of our own works. Like I said before, Muck has been doing all of this long before now, decades before, but we didn't use it why? Because Furries? I don't think that was the intent of the people who created Muck (but I could be wrong!), but that ended up being the fact.
This is the problem of creators. Who gets to say what's true? Well if you leave it up to people, you give up control over it. Defending your thesis is about more than arguing. It's also about justifying the opinion.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@thenomain I really think you'll find a lot more people who define MUD with the characteristics @Sparks describes than the definition you're trying to use.
@thenomain I'm not trying to be obtuse here but I really don't get what you're arguing. You see "built-in interpreter" as the defining quality of a MUSH, I see "basic command set and syntax and gameplay" as the defining quality of a MUSH. We can agree to disagree about that point.
At the end of the day, AresMUSH is a MUSH because that's what I named it. That's what the documentation says. That's what the website name aresmush.com says. I'm not "leaving it up to people" - this is what it is. But at the same time, I can't stop someone from calling it someone else any more than Google can stop people from talking about "googling" something on Bing.
@roz said in Alternative Formats to MU:
@thenomain I really think you'll find a lot more people who define MUD with the characteristics @Sparks describes than the definition you're trying to use.
Perhaps, but I don't think "shrug, smile, condescending response" as a valid way to convince anyone otherwise.
I know that Faraday absolutely hates the way that Soapbox argues, and that she is tired of trying to convince anyone of anything, but I really thought she knew me better than that.
I'll be over looking at kitten pics for now.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@thenomain said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Perhaps, but I don't think "shrug, smile, condescending response" as a valid way to convince anyone otherwise.
Aww come on. I was just being a smart-aleck with my friend about a comment I disagreed with. It wasn't meant to start a fight.
@auspice I just stole (borrowed, used with permission, whatever) one from someone who could code.
@thenomain said in Alternative Formats to MU:
I still consider Evennia a MUD-like because, as you said earlier, it's not a game installation, but a framework in which you can create a game.
I would personally say that Evennia is an engine/framework for creating MU* games, some of which are "MUSH-like" or "MUD-like" depedning on your goals. I think our developers are pretty evenly split between either play style (with a few going far away from either or combining elements of each).
The built-in interpreter, that you can code from the inside, is what I use to classify a MUSH-like game.
Hey, if that is the only definition, then Evennia can (now) fulfill it. Just activate the in-game-python Evennia contrib module and you can essentially code and script your game in-Python from inside the game. Now, it's not safe for use by untrusted users. I wouldn't personally want to code a game over a telnet-like connection when I could use real development tools outside the game. But it's real Evennia softcode if that's your cup of tea.
@thatguythere said in Alternative Formats to MU:
@arkandel said in Alternative Formats to MU:
For me RP needs to be real time. Again, it doesn't mean this is the only 'valid' way to do it, but that's what would work for me.
This would be the biggest sticking point for me to move away from telnet. If the RP is not real time I lose interest. I tend to wander a bit waiting for a pose if it is longer than 5 minutes. With MUSH this is when i get my house work done peeking back every couple of minutes until things pick up. Sadly with web based this would be were I found a video to watch and the scene would likely be forgotten about.
Out of curiosity, why do you feel telnet is needed for real-time interaction? Modern web browser clients with websockets or ajax/comet can (and do) also produce real-time game play. I can see the argument for long-time mud-clients having more features than their browser equivalents, but telnet has nothing to do with that? Maybe you are referring to "forum RP" when you say "web"?
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Griatch
I think it's important to keep in mind that neither Ares nor Evennia are bringing anything to the table that we haven't had for the past 25 years (except for the ability to code MU*s in Python and Ruby). Servers such as MOO, ColdMUD, DGD, and MUCK are every bit as capable (and are even superior in many respects) as their more modern counterparts but have largely been ignored because MUSH was easier and 'good enough'. Evennia and Ares are not going to reverse that trend, any more than ColdMUD and MUCK did.
This is coming from someone who has spent the last four months working on an Evennia based project 
@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:
neither Ares nor Evennia are bringing anything to the table that we haven't had for the past 25 years (except for the ability to code MU*s in Python and Ruby
That thing that you describe as 'except for' is a big deal though. MUSHCode and C had their days, but their days are long gone.
Another thing that Ares is designed to bring to the table is a game that is fully functional out of the box, with all the systems people expect (from jobs to chargen), configurable without touching a lick of code. I haven't seen that in any other MU system, but if I'm wrong there by all means please highlight alternatives to raise awareness.
Also, do those other platforms have a built-in wiki and fully functional website with real-time notifications to and from the game? There are a lot of games out there struggling with keeping data consistent between the game and an independent wiki.
I don't think anybody's saying that the new platforms are some kind of jaw-dropping revolution. But I think it's doing them a disservice to claim that they're not offering anything that hasn't been around for 25 years.
@faraday Wasn't meaning to trivialize the efforts that have gone into either of those servers, was just pointing out the futility of doing the same things over and over but expecting different results.
@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:
I think it's important to keep in mind that neither Ares nor Evennia are bringing anything to the table that we haven't had for the past 25 years (except for the ability to code MU*s in Python and Ruby). Servers such as MOO, ColdMUD, DGD, and MUCK are every bit as capable (and are even superior in many respects) as their more modern counterparts but have largely been ignored because MUSH was easier and 'good enough'. Evennia and Ares are not going to reverse that trend, any more than ColdMUD and MUCK did.
This is coming from someone who has spent the last four months working on an Evennia based project
Besides the built-in web-integration (possible in other servers, but only if you know how to code it yourself), the big, giant, enormous benefit of Evennia and Ares is that they are written in languages for which many, many tutorials, help communities, and books exist.
I taught myself MOO code maybe a decade ago. The documentation is atrocious and it's hard to learn without a mentor. It's also hard to find mentors.
I prefer it to coding in MUSH for many, many reasons, but I'm still super enthused about seeing MU games moving to code platforms that I can learn without having to cross my fingers and archive.org decades-old help pages.
@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Was just pointing out the futility of doing the same things over and over but expecting different results.
Are they really doing the same things though? Smashing the do you have a coder flowchart that has hindered the creation of games for 25 years. Making it orders of magnitude easier to learn to code, as @Tat mentioned. Creating a seamless web/wiki/game integration. These are things that, to the best of my knowledge, haven't been done before.
Naturally, any new product challenging the status quo faces an uphill battle. And yes, others have tried and failed. Does that make it futile? I don't think so, but everyone here knows my penchant for tilting at windmills
@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Are they really doing the same things though? Smashing the do you have a coder flowchart that has hindered the creation of games for 25 years. Making it orders of magnitude easier to learn to code, as @Tat mentioned. Creating a seamless web/wiki/game integration. These are things that, to the best of my knowledge, haven't been done before.
All of this may be true, but good games differ from one another. Your package may have all of the great features we've come to know and love, but I don't think, for example, that the developers are interested in coding up special, unique features for each game.
I could be wrong, mind.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
@ganymede How is that related to her point?
@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:
I think it's important to keep in mind that neither Ares nor Evennia are bringing anything to the table that we haven't had for the past 25 years (except for the ability to code MU*s in Python and Ruby). Servers such as MOO, ColdMUD, DGD, and MUCK are every bit as capable (and are even superior in many respects) as their more modern counterparts but have largely been ignored because MUSH was easier and 'good enough'. Evennia and Ares are not going to reverse that trend, any more than ColdMUD and MUCK did.
This is coming from someone who has spent the last four months working on an Evennia based project
Yours is an interesting perspective. Could you elaborate on what you, as a current Evennia developer, feel that that the above servers are superior to Evennia (or for that matter Ares if you have experience there) on? And I'm not meaning this in any defensive way at all - I'm genuinely interested in hearing about aspects we can improve on.
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Griatch
I still consider Evennia a MUD-like because, as you said earlier, it's not a game installation, but a framework in which you can create a game.
Ares is mostly MUD-like, but works very hard not to show it.
The built-in interpreter, that you can code from the inside, is what I use to classify a MUSH-like game.
