Questions About Evennia

[boneghazi]

So I've got questions about Evennia that maybe some people around here could answer without me bugging the poor people on the discord/irc server that are probably tired of me bugging them.

1. How customizable is the system? Like say for instance I wanted to run an nWoD 2.0 game (>_>), is it feasible? Is the current release stable enough for my coder to tinker around with tweaking this?

2. Wiki! I've been looking at the games hosted, and they all have wikis that seem similar in design. Is this powered by a 3rd party wiki something akin to mediawiki? Or was it hand coded to suit Evennia?

3. I could have sworn there was a module/feature list that I just cannot find again - am I mistaken? Can someone point me in the right direction? (Examples: bboard, paging, battle system, etc).

Thank you in advance.

[boneghazi]

Also if this is in the wrong bucket please move me around

[Roz]

@nyctophiliac said in Questions About Evennia:

1. How customizable is the system? Like say for instance I wanted to run an nWoD 2.0 game (>_>), is it feasible? Is the current release stable enough for my coder to tinker around with tweaking this?

AFAIK you can do anything you want as long as you know Python. It comes with very little built in out of the box.

2. Wiki! I've been looking at the games hosted, and they all have wikis that seem similar in design. Is this powered by a 3rd party wiki something akin to mediawiki? Or was it hand coded to suit Evennia?

There's a default website template, which is why a lot of the websites look similar, but they're not wikis.

[RnMissionRun]

@nyctophiliac said in Questions About Evennia:

So I've got questions about Evennia that maybe some people around here could answer without me bugging the poor people on the discord/irc server that are probably tired of me bugging them.

1. How customizable is the system? Like say for instance I wanted to run an nWoD 2.0 game (>_>), is it feasible? Is the current release stable enough for my coder to tinker around with tweaking this?

2. Wiki! I've been looking at the games hosted, and they all have wikis that seem similar in design. Is this powered by a 3rd party wiki something akin to mediawiki? Or was it hand coded to suit Evennia?

3. I could have sworn there was a module/feature list that I just cannot find again - am I mistaken? Can someone point me in the right direction? (Examples: bboard, paging, battle system, etc).

Thank you in advance.

1. It's very customizable, but of course non-trivial things will require some skill to accomplish.

2. Not sure what you mean by this, are you talking about the main Evennia wiki?

3. The core system is functional but still pretty light since it's meant to be an extensible framework and not a MU*-in-a-box type of thing. There's no mail system, boards system , no concept of object "ownership" in the traditional sense, characters don't even have genders, etc. There are numerous contributed modules that make up for some of these, you can find those here.

[Griatch]

We are not tired of people asking questions in the Evennia support channel. If people don't reply right away it's usually because people are preoccupied, not that they ignore you. Time zone differences are also a thing, People are spread all over.

1. Yes. Evennia works quite differently under the hood compared to your average mush though.
2. Evennia is its own web server and has a default website and webclient it starts along with the server. There is no wiki out of the box.
3. Maybe https://github.com/evennia/evennia/wiki/Evennia-Introduction or https://github.com/evennia/evennia/tree/master/evennia/contrib ?
   .
   Griatch

[Apos]

If you have your heart set on a wiki I'm sure there's a lot of random django apps for it. Googled and saw https://github.com/django-wiki/django-wiki at a glance.

[skew]

And someone had started to work on a nWoD/CofD stat system for Evennia... I just can't remember who/where.

[Griatch]

@skew That would be @Volund I think.

[RnMissionRun]

There's a Mage game, it's not Volund's though. You can find it on the Evennia Game Index, here.

[Kassien]

Evennia is a great way to go. Since it uses Python it can pretty much do anything Python can. Excluding anything in Python3.

Also Python is a much easier concept to learn then the old outdated MU code.

The index is a good way to find out which games are being developed. Arx being the current one that's past the pre-alpha/alpha stage.

If you want to discuss more, you can also login to connect.deepshadowsmush.com and ping Bremen. I can talk to you about development on Evennia as well from a person who knows nothing about programming and how much easier Evennia was to do.

[Thenomain]

@griatch said in Questions About Evennia:

We are not tired of people asking questions in the Evennia support channel

I can attest to this. The Evennia IRC channel is filled with non-stop helpfulness. Also, puppies and unicorns.

V...V...whatshisname is a PennMush to Evennia coder. He knows extremely well what non-coders are looking at and can help you transition where others on the channel are coders used to talking to other coders. There are others, but he's the one person who comes to mind. Not his name, mind you, but him as a person.

edit: Yes, @Volund. He's one-of-us from the WoD crowd.

--

As an aside: @griatch, your code example of Why Evennia Is Better Than TinyMU* is kind of ass. Whomever coded the example that you're dissing should be lightly smacked. I can think of a million reasons why you should use a real programming language to code, but "because we have a poor example of Tiny coding" is not one. It reminds me of those PC-vs-Mac OS or Android-vs-Anyone Else wars that some people still think matters.

Not being harsh, but it's a bit disingenuous.

[Griatch]

@thenomain said in Questions About Evennia:

@griatch said in Questions About Evennia:

We are not tired of people asking questions in the Evennia support channel

I can attest to this. The Evennia IRC channel is filled with non-stop helpfulness. Also, puppies and unicorns.

V...V...whatshisname is a PennMush to Evennia coder. He knows extremely well what non-coders are looking at and can help you transition where others on the channel are coders used to talking to other coders. There are others, but he's the one person who comes to mind. Not his name, mind you, but him as a person.

edit: Yes, @Volund. He's one-of-us from the WoD crowd.

There is plenty of people dropping in there that have no previous programming experience at all, whether Python or any other mud-specific language. Those with specific mushcode experience helps with the issues and questions specific to that group though, for sure.

--

As an aside: @griatch, your code example of Why Evennia Is Better Than TinyMU* is kind of ass. Whomever coded the example that you're dissing should be lightly smacked. I can think of a million reasons why you should use a real programming language to code, but "because we have a poor example of Tiny coding" is not one. It reminds me of those PC-vs-Mac OS or Android-vs-Anyone Else wars that some people still think matters.

Not being harsh, but it's a bit disingenuous.

I don't read mushcode myself. The example is written by a mushcode coder that also was one week into learning Python when writing the Evennia comparison. So to me as an experienced Python coder the Evennia example is ugly too honestly. But sure, I hear what you're saying; it's not our intention to make misleading comparisons so if the example comes across as disingenuous we can remove it.
.
Griatch

[faraday]

@griatch said in Questions About Evennia:

it's not our intention to make misleading comparisons so if the example comes across as disingenuous we can remove it.

I think that a MUSHcode vs new code example is helpful. If the existing one isn't good, maybe @Thenomain could point do / provide a good tutorial-worthy example in MUSHcode and then someone can make an Evennia version.

[Thenomain]

@faraday said in Questions About Evennia:

@griatch said in Questions About Evennia:

it's not our intention to make misleading comparisons so if the example comes across as disingenuous we can remove it.

I think that a MUSHcode vs new code example is helpful. If the existing one isn't good, maybe @Thenomain could point do / provide a good tutorial-worthy example in MUSHcode and then someone can make an Evennia version.

+finger, +who, +where, in that order. These are the base three Learning To Mush Code systems that everyone should do. As +where is a nightmare in Mu*, I think that it would be a good example of why not to learn Mushcode.

[faraday]

@thenomain said in Questions About Evennia:

+finger, +who, +where, in that order. These are the base three Learning To Mush Code systems that everyone should do. As +where is a nightmare in Mu*, I think that it would be a good example of why not to learn Mushcode.

Yeah. What I meant was - what would you consider to be a good example of one of those in MUSHCode to use in contrasting the two? My +where or +finger are customizable and briared in with my global functions and install system, so they wouldn't really make a good example. And you didn't like the current Evennia example so... is there a good contrasting example?

[Ashen-Shugar]

@thenomain said in Questions About Evennia:

@faraday said in Questions About Evennia:

@griatch said in Questions About Evennia:

it's not our intention to make misleading comparisons so if the example comes across as disingenuous we can remove it.

I think that a MUSHcode vs new code example is helpful. If the existing one isn't good, maybe @Thenomain could point do / provide a good tutorial-worthy example in MUSHcode and then someone can make an Evennia version.

+finger, +who, +where, in that order. These are the base three Learning To Mush Code systems that everyone should do. As +where is a nightmare in Mu*, I think that it would be a good example of why not to learn Mushcode.

Depends entirely how much detail you want +where to offer and what restrictions you have on it.

 $+mywhere:@pemit %#=[setq(0,setdiff(iter(lwho(),loc(##)),#-1))][list(%q0,printf($-40:.:s $-"|30s,name(##)%b,elist(lcon(%i0,connect),and,,,,
cname(%0))))]

Not that difficult for a generic one

[Thenomain]

@faraday said in Questions About Evennia:

@thenomain said in Questions About Evennia:

+finger, +who, +where, in that order. These are the base three Learning To Mush Code systems that everyone should do. As +where is a nightmare in Mu*, I think that it would be a good example of why not to learn Mushcode.

Yeah. What I meant was - what would you consider to be a good example of one of those in MUSHCode to use in contrasting the two? My +where or +finger are customizable and briared in with my global functions and install system, so they wouldn't really make a good example. And you didn't like the current Evennia example so... is there a good contrasting example?

Well it depends on the goal of the example. If the goal of the example is to provide a well-formed and readable bit of MU* code vs. the same code well-formed and readable in Evennia, then I'm going to nominate a moderately complex but not overwhelming +finger code. The one Cobalt writes and/or forces me to write where people can set their own finger attributes up to a certain number comes to mind. I'd have to dig around.

I could even fix the code presented from Mushcode to be more legible and better formed.

However.

I just looked for the "why you should use Evennia and not Mushlikes", the page with the cringe-worthy code, and couldn't find it. What I found instead were a series of fairly well-documented introductory documents. I admit I didn't look too hard, and my job all day puts me at odds with people who want to convince me that my preferred fill-in-blank (OS/Hardware Platform) is bad and that I should feel bad. I don't want to see that in my off time. It smacked me of system conceit which I know happens a lot in open source, even by accident (vis a vis @Ashen-Shugar's post, which assumes Rhost compatibility, because That's His Thing).

Structured programming languages are unarguably better, but I was surprised by what I read as a divisive, not bridging tone in that one, specific, particular document.

--

tl;dr: Evennia and Ares are the right direction, period, no questions. Thenomain still doesn't like it when people misrepresent his favorite flavor of <fill in blank>.

[Ashen-Shugar]

@thenomain said in Questions About Evennia:

It smacked me of system conceit which I know happens a lot in open source, even by accident (vis a vis @Ashen-Shugar's post, which assumes Rhost compatibility, because That's His Thing).

Hope I wasn't coming off as arrogant, wasn't my intention. Was just trying to point out that all languages have their measure of learning curve, and not everything is as cut and dry as 'easy' or 'difficult'.

Python and Ruby has the benefit of being main-stream languages and being useful to use out of the mush arena. Mushcode does not.

For MUX it's about the same, just as a FYI:

$+mywhere:@pemit %#=[setq(0,setdiff(iter(lwho(),loc(##)),#-1))][list(%q0,[ljust(name(##),40,.)].. [wrap(itemize(iter(lcon(%i0,connect),name(%i0),,|),|),
35,l,,,43)])]

tl;dr: Evennia and Ares are the right direction, period, no questions. Thenomain still doesn't like it when people misrepresent his favorite flavor of <fill in blank>.

I wouldn't say it was the 'right' decision. Honestly, I think for the world of mushdom, the 'right' decision is to bury it and rebuild it from the ground up, as a mixed environment of text, graphical, web, and everything else.

Ergo, build it as an engine API and allow the method they want to connect up to the end user. But who the hell has the time for that?

[faraday]

@ashen-shugar said in Questions About Evennia:

Ergo, build it as an engine API and allow the method they want to connect up to the end user. But who the hell has the time for that?

:sheepishly raises hand?: Though we can disagree slightly as to what constitutes the "right" technical architecture, and that's veering off-topic for this thread anyway.

[Thenomain]

@faraday said in Questions About Evennia:

that's veering off-topic for this thread anyway.

My fault entirely.

#sorrynotsorry