@skew This sounds like how I coded at first, I stared at the screen, started with the functions I knew, when those didn't work, started digging through help files, experiment, so on and so forth. It's part of why I know someone who is a more practiced coder could probably make something much more elegant, but as long as it works damnit 
Just for those who are suggesting it: Patreon does not have a "tip jar". I really wish it did. A whole lot of people wish it did.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@faraday said in Charging for MU* Code?:
Uh, you kinda replied to a post about "contracts and crap" with comments about commissions, so yeah - that's what we're talking about.
I look at the offer here like an offer to handle a legal matter for a flat fee.
No sane lawyer promises an outcome, but a lawyer should know what his or her client's interests are. They have a better idea than the average person as to how long it takes to get to the desired result, presuming that they can get there. So, when they set the flat fee, they do so knowing what compensation they expect for their work, regardless of how long it takes or what the ultimate result is.
The client has every right to remind the lawyer what their interests are, and can ask to change those interests mid-way. If they do that, though, the lawyer has the right to demand more money because the client is changing the scope of the work to be done.
I see the same premise here. I can tell Thenomain what I'd like to see, and he can charge what he feels is reasonable.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
@ganymede said in Charging for MU* Code?:
I see the same premise here. I can tell Thenomain what I'd like to see, and he can charge what he feels is reasonable.
Yes I understand that concept. What I'm saying is that it's a well-demonstrated fact that software projects don't work that way. It's not like drafting a standard will or power of attorney where it's been done a bunch of times before and you know roughly how much effort is involved. Every project(*) is radically different, and how something is done (i.e. the details of the screens or the commands or the mechanics underlying them) actually does matter to the "customer".
(*) - with the exception of incredibly trivial or bounded/repeatable tasks like "install my suite of code", which are uncommon and really not what I'm talking about here.
You can say, "Hey Fara I want you to do my Mass Effect system" and I have no idea whether that's a 2-hour, 20-hour or 200-hour project without first doing a lot of legwork - including discussions on mechanics, commands, etc.
Sure I can just do my best to gauge the effort based on a quick convo, but I'm then taking on huge "risks" in not assessing a fair value for my time and effort or not properly bounding the project. I'm just setting myself up for headaches down the road if it turns out that your vision is actually 10x more complicated than I thought it was going to be (especially if I don't really want to put that kind of effort into it), or if we end up butting heads all "but I thought that was included..." "no that's extra..."
Incidentally, here's a great analogy about why software project estimates are regularly off by a factor of 2-3.
@thenomain said in Charging for MU* Code?:
Just for those who are suggesting it: Patreon does not have a "tip jar". I really wish it did. A whole lot of people wish it did.
Really? Wow that's incredibly dumb. Well you can still set up a PayPal tip jar.
@faraday Couldn't a lot of that be avoided by not accepting anything from them with a layout of exactly what they want it to do? I am not certain treating mu* coding products like software products is the way to go because people 'looking for a coder' more often than not know exactly what they want and how they want it to work they just don't have the code know how to make it work/if it can work.
I have yet to meet a mu* creator who doesn't know, almost exactly, what they want and a basic break down of how they want it to work.
(edited response for poor wording the first time)
@icanbeyourmuse said in Charging for MU* Code?:
I have yet to meet a mu* creator who doesn't know, almost exactly, what they want and a basic break down of how they want it to work.
I have. Often.
@faraday Couldn't a lot of that be avoided by not accepting anything from them with a layout of exactly what they want it to do?
Theoretically yes. In practice it just doesn't usually work out that way.
Like an interior designer, part of the expertise they're paying you for is often helping them to figure out exactly how it should be. They have a rough idea, but the devil's in the details.
This is more about larger projects than smaller ones btw. If all you need is a text-message system with three commands, that's different. I'm talking about the "looking for coder for a (whatever) game" type of folks who have loftier goals.
@thenomain https://www.paypal.me/ allows for one time payments, or recurring payments.
@faraday For larger projects I'd, personally, require a design document with end-goals and visions and shit that is mutually agreed upon before work starts.
@icanbeyourmuse said in Charging for MU* Code?:
I have yet to meet a mu* creator who doesn't know, almost exactly, what they want and a basic break down of how they want it to work.
Man, I have yet to meet a MU* creator who knows what they want--who really knows what they want--including myself when I've started games.
Often the limitations and the reach of code elude the people who it needs to work for. I have had arguments and discussions with @Thenomain that lasted hours--days, even--about this stuff.
Just because a game owner thinks their mapped out plan is perfect and complete, doesn't mean it is.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
@coin I want a WoD splat that isn't full of fluff and has dice rolls described for every possible permeation of action. That's all I want.
ETA: But yes. Many, many, MANY people seem to think code is the answer to everything where culture and policy is far more important in many situations.
@faraday said in Charging for MU* Code?:
Yes I understand that concept. What I'm saying is that it's a well-demonstrated fact that software projects don't work that way.
I also accept this premise, which is why I charge on an hourly basis. Still, it's up to the professional to figure out what he or she will or will not do, so I'm not going to second guess Theno-pricing. He's a big boy; he can charge whatever the market will bear.
@tinuviel said in Charging for MU* Code?:
I want a WoD splat that isn't full of fluff and has dice rolls described for every possible permeation of action. That's all I want.
It's almost like you want a rule book. Imagine that.
I've worked on adaptations of nWoD incarnations, and if I can wedge 15 bloodlines into under 40 pages of text, I know I don't need a 100+ page book describing a dozen of them.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
What @faraday says it's true. I'm in the field and I have friends who've freelanced on projects before, and figuring out the difficulty and timeline of non-trivial projects is an incredibly complicated task on its own.
Trivial doesn't need to mean 'simple' although it usually does, it can be something we've done before in a very similar fashion. For example setting up an existing CMS platform with a custom template and some configuration tweaks is trivial enough that someone who's done it before can do so again and fall within the ballpark of an initial estimate.
The fun part? Even then it's tricky. The customer might come back days or even weeks later with additions or things they just noticed weren't working right, a necessary security update could break critical parts of a site, etc. Non-technical employers (the vast majority of them especially for 'trivial' things since if they were technically inclined they'd have probably done them themselves) don't understand the issue but they do understand they paid for something that, in their eyes, isn't working right.
Work for hire has its rewards, and sometimes they make it all worth it, but care needs to be taken. As for the legal repercussions, add to them the nature of the job - you work for people in various geographical areas where different laws can be applied, and it doesn't get any simpler.
@ganymede said in Charging for MU* Code?:
@faraday said in Charging for MU* Code?:
Still, it's up to the professional to figure out what he or she will or will not do, so I'm not going to second guess Theno-pricing. He's a big boy; he can charge whatever the market will bear.
Oh I agree. My direct advice to Theno was to charge whatever his time was worth. I was just supporting Tinuviel’s quite-warranted advice to be cautious about “scope creep” and the potentially thorny implications once you start taking money for something.
“Hey Fara, can you do X for me? I need it to do A, B and C.”
“Sure np that’ll be $50.”
After the first draft...
“Oh. Well. That’s not really how I wanted it to work.”
“But that’s what you asked for. “
“But it’s not correct.”
“Well this other thing you actually wanted is 5x as complicated so that’s going to cost you more.”
“Wtf man you said $50.”
This is how 90% of software projects go and anyone going into it for money needs to accept and be prepared to deal with exactly that.
@thenomain said in Charging for MU* Code?:
Just for those who are suggesting it: Patreon does not have a "tip jar". I really wish it did. A whole lot of people wish it did.
I use Paypal for those who really want to just do a one-time tip-of-the-jar and, as I mentioned, Patreon for those generous enough to do so regularly. Works fine, but I agree something integrated on Patreon would be neat.
“Well this other thing you actually wanted is 5x as complicated so that’s going to cost you more.”
“Wtf man you said $50.”
I can tell this is not unusual outside of software projects either; I've had more complex art/design commissions go down similar routes. With art you usually specify how many 'revisions' your contract allows, just for this reason. Without that, the client would nitpick details forever.
.
Griatch
@ganymede said in Charging for MU* Code?:
@tinuviel said in Charging for MU* Code?:
I want a WoD splat that isn't full of fluff and has dice rolls described for every possible permeation of action. That's all I want.
It's almost like you want a rule book. Imagine that.
I've worked on adaptations of nWoD incarnations, and if I can wedge 15 bloodlines into under 40 pages of text, I know I don't need a 100+ page book describing a dozen of them.
If ever a rulebook has total understanding of what I want to do, I've failed as a roleplayer.
@griatch said in Charging for MU* Code?:
I can tell this is not unusual outside of software projects either; I've had more complex art/design commissions go down similar routes. With art you usually specify how many 'revisions' your contract allows, just for this reason. Without that, the client would nitpick details forever.
And this is why I charge by the hour, a fact that I remind my oft-calling clients when they want to chat for an hour about why they don't like life.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
@thenomain said in Charging for MU* Code?:
Just for those who are suggesting it: Patreon does not have a "tip jar". I really wish it did. A whole lot of people wish it did.
There's a few others like it. Plus you can do it through PayPal.
Paypal might be the easiest - seems the thing most people would be familiar with. If you like -simple-, Google Wallet goes off of email as well and deposits to your bank within seconds, so it's all right at hand immediately.
@ganymede It's a legitimate way to do it. In programming terms if the contractor is asked to provide a fixed estimate then they should fudge the number to comfortably err on the side of caution, and if an itemized list is involved then that can complicates things - such lists are often nitpicked to death.
But yeah, an hourly wage works best if feature creep is a reasonable expectation, which for MU* projects it definitely would be. Maybe have a pre-agreed threshold amount (in $$ or hours, whichever) past which the coder reaches out since few people will want to shell out unexpectedly big amounts for a free game.
As a side note, it'd be interested to see if such an idea would catch on, and how it'd affect other technical 'jobs' required to run a MUSH. If the coder is paid $200 to set it up for their 10 hours of work how does the wiki designer feel about putting their own 10 hours in for free?
@faraday It isn’t just tech, too. Cannot even count the number of jewelry commissions that are exactly like this.
We will just not discuss the lady who pitched an actual public screaming fit that her $20 earrings were not 24k gold. (Lady, I can’t even get a single 24k gold ear stud for that at bulk wholesale, let alone make a pair of earrings covered in vintage glass and swarovski on top!)
Ahem. So maybe I will discuss her a little. But it’s good to know that like this lady, most people have no damn clue what they’re asking for, or even how plausible it even is —forget time or complexity. Just, uh, be prepared.
Also be prepared for people like the lady who gave the (30+ hours of delicate hand beading) necklace to her dog to play with for a month to expect you to fix it free... but she saved the poops with most of the missing parts for me, so that’s totally cool, right?
In short: people can suck in ways that will make you hate life and the things you love sometimes once $ enters the picture. Be careful, and choose your customers wisely if you can.
Oh fucking well.
@skew This sounds like how I coded at first, I stared at the screen, started with the functions I knew, when those didn't work, started digging through help files, experiment, so on and so forth. It's part of why I know someone who is a more practiced coder could probably make something much more elegant, but as long as it works damnit
