Encouraging Proactive Players

[mietze]

I think it’s helpful for staff (and even STs) to let players know what they’d like to see, because there can really be a huge variance across games and even STs.

For example:

*Are requests/inquiries and pitches for IC doings welcome for ic “news” stories on games? I’ve played on good mushes where it was enthusiastically welcomed, never responded to either negatively or positively, met with pretty harsh ooc don’t waste my time commentary, and also where it was expected but not said explicitly anywhere, so staff was frustrated that “nobody was interested” when in fact people didn’t know it was welcome.

*Is the wiki ic (open for even stranger players to have a conversation about connections)? I have seen it both ways on good places.

*is there a fleshed out how to make a request (not a +help +request, but....more like “we want you to pitch the specific way you are hunting for info/tracking the beast/researching the artifact/reverse engineering the alien tech, how you’re approaching it and your proposed rolls.)

*does staff/st acknowledge a mail or request in a polite and timely manner (even if they can’t answer right away, but just to let the person know it’s being looked at?)

*are people encouraged to give positive feedback and complements for a neat way of approaching things or something especially enjoyable?

I think a lot of times people have a certain perception that everyone knows what to do to show their interest, and I’ve found mush to mush it can be a lot different. Being an excited player and putting in inquiries or asking questions and being brushed aside rudely and/or hearing staff talk about how “nobody” does anything proactive when your job or mail has been sitting unresponded to for a week is pretty disheartening too. Sometimes people are happy to give another nudge or keep poking, sometimes they’re not!

[Auspice]

@thatguythere said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

@quinn said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

I Some people will NEVER legwork a thing.

I think I am one of those people. I am more than happy to chase down plots through scenes but the second it becomes put in a request thing i tend to drift away. I don't mind RPing being in a library looking for things but the whole +jobs structure has always reminded me a bit too much like game homework so I tend to avoid it.
Which leads into my thing for encouraging active players eliminate bureaucracy whenever possible.

I would not mind running such a scene, but if no one ever tells me they want a research scene, I'm probably not going to just run one off the cuff... because most people don't want scenes like that. In my experience, most people don't show up to scenes like that. They show up to the big flashy action! events.

So you need to at the very least alert your plot runner to the fact that you want to do research via RP. If you never say a thing, they can only assume you don't want that thing.

I generally add OOC notes to my stuff, wrap up scenes with OOC notes, etc. for people to let me know if they want to do more. If they want to follow up on something. If they want to see more scenes. I try to make myself as available as possible (as a Staffer, a player, an ST). I know I am an available person because when I Staff, people are generally perfectly comfortable coming to me with questions (about CG, wiki help, concerns, etc...)...

...but I almost never get followup on plot. This is why I think that the vast majority of people just want to be spoon fed their plot.

[ThatGuyThere]

@quinn said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

@ThatGuyThere How do you do that though without having a staff member always be around in every room any RP is happening in just in case someone wants to RP researching something related to a plot? Seriously asking.

Mostly it was done with a quick page or by mail. I know there is little real difference to me but the page/mail route seems like normal player to GM interaction, and +request feels like filling out forms. I am pretty sure this is due to when I started mushing. Back then pretty much everything was handled by mail so I learned to accept it, +jobs didn't exist til I was set in my ways so I avoid it.

[Ortallus]

@thatguythere said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

@quinn said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

@ThatGuyThere How do you do that though without having a staff member always be around in every room any RP is happening in just in case someone wants to RP researching something related to a plot? Seriously asking.

Mostly it was done with a quick page or by mail. I know there is little real difference to me but the page/mail route seems like normal player to GM interaction, and +request feels like filling out forms. I am pretty sure this is due to when I started mushing. Back then pretty much everything was handled by mail so I learned to accept it, +jobs didn't exist til I was set in my ways so I avoid it.

+jobs are 20+ years old. Just FYI.

Edit: Not trying to be snarky, it really is an FYI. You might not have played on places they were on, but they've been around for eons.

[Quinn]

@ThatGuyThere Ahh, okay. That makes sense. Yeah, I wouldn't really distinguish between the two then. You're still sending up a flag to say, "Hey, I'm interested!" I've definitely been on games where people who hated +requests would befriend me because they knew I liked them and would inevitably dole out the information when I got it!

[ThatGuyThere]

@ortallus
I have been mushing for 25 years.
Edit: The first place I heard of that used them was Anomaly which was a trek MU* . I never played there but I do remember the ads for it when it opened.

[Lisse24]

@auspice said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

I would not mind running such a scene, but if no one ever tells me they want a research scene, I'm probably not going to just run one off the cuff... because most people don't want scenes like that. In my experience, most people don't show up to scenes like that. They show up to the big flashy action! events.

So you need to at the very least alert your plot runner to the fact that you want to do research via RP. If you never say a thing, they can only assume you don't want that thing.

I generally add OOC notes to my stuff, wrap up scenes with OOC notes, etc. for people to let me know if they want to do more. If they want to follow up on something. If they want to see more scenes. I try to make myself as available as possible (as a Staffer, a player, an ST). I know I am an available person because when I Staff, people are generally perfectly comfortable coming to me with questions (about CG, wiki help, concerns, etc...)...

...but I almost never get followup on plot. This is why I think that the vast majority of people just want to be spoon fed their plot.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever scheduled a follow-up/research/discussion/planning event for a plot? Because it seems PRPs are usually just these quick action events. More often then not, I walk away from PRPs confused and thinking "Well, what am I supposed to do now?" I can't quite process the action with what I was supposed to have learned with how my character should follow-up. It's not even clear to me whether I should be following up or whether the event was just meant to be a one-off kill-a-thing.

Something isn't real to me and doesn't really penetrate into who the character is until I've had plenty of opportunity to RP about it. I love doing RP about what my character is achieving/accomplishing/involved in, even if no one else picks up quite what's going on. To that end, I, personally, love a library/research/planning scene. I don't think they take away from the story. I think they make the story. I mean, there's a reason those scenes are in every Buffy episode.

Although, I'm probably not the best person to critique PRPs, I largely don't participate in them for all the reasons listed above. If I thought that a PRP would be a meaty thing that really gave me something to sink my teeth in and RP about, though? If I knew there would be follow-up and the plot wouldn't just disappear after a random scene or two? I'd be all over that in a sec.

[Ortallus]

@thatguythere said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

Anomaly

Well, I know Shadowrun Seattle had them, and I believe they launched in 93-ish?

shrug They're definitely way more mainstream now, though, yes.

[ThatGuyThere]

@ortallus
That was right about when I started. Never touched the Shadow Run corner of Mu*dom, since the game itself doesn't appeal to me.

[Ortallus]

@lisse24 said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

@auspice said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

I would not mind running such a scene, but if no one ever tells me they want a research scene, I'm probably not going to just run one off the cuff... because most people don't want scenes like that. In my experience, most people don't show up to scenes like that. They show up to the big flashy action! events.

So you need to at the very least alert your plot runner to the fact that you want to do research via RP. If you never say a thing, they can only assume you don't want that thing.

I generally add OOC notes to my stuff, wrap up scenes with OOC notes, etc. for people to let me know if they want to do more. If they want to follow up on something. If they want to see more scenes. I try to make myself as available as possible (as a Staffer, a player, an ST). I know I am an available person because when I Staff, people are generally perfectly comfortable coming to me with questions (about CG, wiki help, concerns, etc...)...

...but I almost never get followup on plot. This is why I think that the vast majority of people just want to be spoon fed their plot.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever scheduled a follow-up/research/discussion/planning event for a plot? Because it seems PRPs are usually just these quick action events. More often then not, I walk away from PRPs confused and thinking "Well, what am I supposed to do now?" I can't quite process the action with what I was supposed to have learned with how my character should follow-up. It's not even clear to me whether I should be following up or whether the event was just meant to be a one-off kill-a-thing.

Something isn't real to me and doesn't really penetrate into who the character is until I've had plenty of opportunity to RP about it. I love doing RP about what my character is achieving/accomplishing/involved in, even if no one else picks up quite what's going on. To that end, I, personally, love a library/research/planning scene. I don't think they take away from the story. I think they make the story. I mean, there's a reason those scenes are in every Buffy episode.

Although, I'm probably not the best person to critique PRPs, I largely don't participate in them for all the reasons listed above. If I thought that a PRP would be a meaty thing that really gave me something to sink my teeth in and RP about, though? If I knew there would be follow-up and the plot wouldn't just disappear after a random scene or two? I'd be all over that in a sec.

One thing I really really like is when PrPs have lasting repercussions. I've been on places where admins will read a log, and it'll inspire them to do something. Whether that something is a rumor that hits the streets, or the cops knocking down their door, it gives it that sense of immersion.

[Auspice]

@lisse24

Most of my plots are investigative things & long-term. They're not really monster-of-the-week unless it's meant to be the kick-off for something. But I will tell people that there is more or that it is a one-off only. I've always done this.

...sadly people will ignore it both ways. I've had people take my this is a one-off, there is nothing else and insist to dig further (this was back when people were very proactive) and I've had people completely ignore things when I send them on scene one of SPOOKY INVESTIGATION TIEM!!!

Again, if I have NO IDEA WHAT THEY WANT TO DO... what am I supposed to schedule?

Do they want to go here? there? Do they want to talk to this person? That person?
Do I schedule twenty scenes to cover every possible avenue? Do I page every person and spend half an hour holding their hand and walking them through every possible outcome they could take?

Why is it so much to hope that people might actually take some initiative and go 'page storyteller=Hey, you said to let you know what we'd like to follow up on. I'd like to have a scene where we go talk to that museum curator sometime.'

Why do I need to +event/create <museum followup/library followup/brainstorm session/investigation scene/clue chat/other followup/witness investigation>, page person a=what do you want to do?, page person b=what do you want to do?, page person c=what do you want to do?

If you all honestly feel the entire weight is on the storyteller to hold everyone's hand and show them the way and walk them through every option their character has, every idea their character might have, every path their character might consider to take, every question their character might ask...

... I don't want to ST anymore. Why are you ever roleplaying if I'm just going to be playing your character for you?

[faraday]

@thatguythere said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

Edit: The first place I heard of that used them was Anomaly which was a trek MU* . I never played there but I do remember the ads for it when it opened.

Yeah, I also remember a fair amount of time before +jobs really caught on. First game I recall playing on that used them over +mail staff for player requests was Battlestar Pacifica in 2007. </tangent>

[3543thrh67]

@auspice I think @Lisse24 has a bit of right to it. More often than not I have found PrPs to be one off things that don't feel like there is anything to follow up on. So, even if you leave all sorts of hooks to get caught on people might just think it is fluff to the scene and won't really go anywhere.

I've seen that happen.. a GM has left hooks then when people follow up there's a lot of 'You found nothing.' (I've seen this on several games and in several plots run) Arx staff has even given characters of players they have banned some interesting ends but they have told players there is nothing to follow up on and that it is just ending the story of the banned player's character. (I even saw a post about it.).

So, I don't think there is anything wrong with making follow up +events, even if, at first, no one shows up. It starts creating a door or window cracked open that people can open wider and enter through.

Mind, @Auspice I don't think I've ever been in anything you've run so I can't say anything about your plots. I don't know how you run or end them. This has just been my experiences.

[Auspice]

@icanbeyourmuse

I do my best to avoid the "you found nothing" on follow ups. The only time this happens is in scene with rolls. Someone fails a spot check? They're not gonna see anything.

People who have been in scenes I've run can attest that I try to give everyone something to find. If four people pass the spot roll, they each get something different to see, even if it's only marginally different. This way it's not always the first person in pose order getting the spotlight.

Same goes for follow up. I know people won't spot everything in the scene itself. I've been on both sides and I've been through enough school to know. It's the blind men and the elephant conundrum. What I see vs what you see isn't always the same. I have the complete puzzle, you don't. I err on the side of giving too much information because what I think is a glaring neon sign might be subtle to the players.

I've outright told people "Let me know good times for you guys to talk to <important character for plot>." And a week later I had to go hey, remember that guy? In the plot? The one that I brought up in the other plot scene last night? You guys haven't given me any times you're free to do a scene to talk to him.

"Oh yeah we forgot about him."

How much more can I do, really?

[Darinelle]

From my perspective, "Encouraging Proactive Players" boils down to one thing: Take the idea that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, set it on fire, throw it out the window and let it burn down the neighborhood.

Now you have time to find the people who are consistently making plot for other people, sharing the love, spreading information, and doing things that make a RP sphere great - and you can do something nice for them. Whether that's spending a little extra time writing some lore for them, or creating a horrible character that spends months terrorizing them at random (cough) or taking them on an adventure plot or just giving them a chance to shine - spend time to do things for people who are already willing to use at least part of their time to do nice things for others.

[Auspice]

@darinelle said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

From my perspective, "Encouraging Proactive Players" boils down to one thing: Take the idea that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, set it on fire, throw it out the window and let it burn down the neighborhood.

Now you have time to find the people who are consistently making plot for other people, sharing the love, spreading information, and doing things that make a RP sphere great - and you can do something nice for them. Whether that's spending a little extra time writing some lore for them, or creating a horrible character that spends months terrorizing them at random (cough) or taking them on an adventure plot or just giving them a chance to shine - spend time to do things for people who are already willing to use at least part of their time to do nice things for others.

Sadly, on most games, those running plot rarely get to participate in plot and because there's so few plot runners left, they often get overwhelmed until they burn out for a while.

It'd be amazing if there was an ST's ST out there.

[Lithium]

I used to run plots all the time, on several games, when I was just a player on those game. I can explain the two things that have /dramatically/ cut down on my desire to do such.

1. The lack of staff doing something too.

I will happily run stories for people, but I want to /play/ also. If the staff are not active or doing things except for their besties, I will stop because I want to fucking /play/. Not just run, /play/. I am not a staffer. It is not my duty to run stories for people if I am a player. I will burn out, and stop.

2. The inability to tell stories that actively influence /anything/ in the game world.

If I have to jump through hoops to get a plot approved then it should be able to have some impact on the game, and the story, other than for those it was involved in. If it does not, you end up with what is essentially the monster of the week, that is oh so terrible, but not really, cuz even if the PC's all /died/... nothing else happened. The PC's disappeared, got deaded, there may be some follow up, there may not, but let's get real here. If something wipes out a group of PC's then it /probably/ has other goals than to just wipe out said PC's. It should /probably/ have an impact on the world beyond that group.

---

There are other things, but those are the two big ones for me. I run stories on a super hero game that uses a very crunchy system. I was getting a lot of love from the player base for telling my stories, the players were engaged, I was having legwork mails sent to me, etc.

When I get the rug pulled out under me it really kills any desire to do anything further. If I can't actually do anything to create a /lasting/ story, then it kills desire too.

[Scissors]

I have always maintained the +event system, widely used for plot scenes since TR, is at least partly to blame.

More often than not, you sign up for an +event and when you show up, you end up with a group of random people that you may or may not know. Everyone has to go out of their way to explain why their are there, Typically, the reasons are a stretch from what characters usually do. Right off the bat, +Events don't fit in with most characters' normal routine, and they immediately become a side story.... a MU*s version of a one-night-stand. There is usually very little personal stake for the participants, and little incentive for them to follow up on clues, because they don't fit in their personal stories.

Granted, using +event for scheduling purposes makes things easier. +Events are well-suited to certain types of scenes, such as one-off "Monster-of-the-Week" scenes, or game-wide major plot scenes. For ongoing mini-plots and story lines, I think using +Events will only end up with frustrations for the ST.

The better option is to drop plot hooks for the more active players, those players who are known to share information with others. Ideally, give them a personal stake in the plot. Drop the hook in @mail works, but even better is introducing it unexpectedly in RP. Doing it this way makes the plot personal to the player, and they are more likely to respond positively.

I have done this to good effect in the past, but I'm choosing not to address the downsides to this arrangement; one example that comes to mind is how whiners will claim staff favoritism if they feel they're not getting enough personal attention. Also this method will likely not work very well for large games, but these days most MU*s are on the smaller side, aren't they?

[Auspice]

@scissors said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

The better option is to drop plot hooks for the more active players, those players who are known to share information with others. Ideally, give them a personal stake in the plot. Drop the hook in @mail works, but even better is introducing it unexpectedly in RP. Doing it this way makes the plot personal to the player, and they are more likely to respond positively.

This is how I naturally work. Mostly due to the fact that I come up with plot ideas on the fly (I'll often just be RPing and start crafting a plot over the course of RPing with people; it just happens) and also because I want things to come naturally. So I'll grab the people the ongoing plot is with and go from there.

But also because I want them to spread the plot. I want it to be organic. I do this. When I have a plot? I carry it into other scenes. Casually RPing? Mention the plot. Bring it up. Talk about things that happened. I know a few other people who do this, too. And then, hopefully, they'll bring that person into the next scene and so on...

My fear from there using +events is sort of: ok, it gives them a reminder of when the next scene is scheduled (for the next big "Action" event), but..... will someone not involved sign up blindly? Will people get mad at me because they're not allowed in (mind you, if I've made bbposts, offered to RP, other people in the plot have offered to RP, etc.... I don't really feel guilty here)?

I prefer organic methods to 'schedule a +event for every single scene in the plot' and these do work better on smaller games. It also just feels more... story-like. To put it like a script, the +events, to me, feel more like your act breaks. The big, climactic scene before the commercial. For everything else, I'd rather people just page me to go 'Hey, can name and I check out this?' or to just grab people and go.

Right now I'm trying a style where I just do smaller scenes with a few people here and there to tell parts of the story as it goes (with the hopes that they involve others via the organic method or that people will come to me asking to be hooked in) and then bigger scenes for those action! events. I feel like it might take some weight off my shoulders and prevent burnout from happening before the plot (which is one of the largest I've undertaken) is over.

[Pyrephox]

What I typically do for +event type signups is disclose OOC about the focus of the plot and which characters are going to have the most relevance to it, and let people self-select. Like, "This is going to be a horror plot, heavy on atmosphere and menace. Characters who are connected with the underworld or who have an interest in cursed artifacts are most likely to hear about it, but if that's not you and you're still interested, let me know and we'll see if we can't find you a way to hook in."

But then, I honestly like to know a couple of days in advance (at least) who's going to be at the plot scene, so that I can check out their wiki and sheet (if available) and have some idea of what they're interested in, so that I can make sure to tailor the plot towards what the players seem to enjoy.