Storytelling

[Coin]

I often wonder the same thing, @mietze. And then I remember they'd be complaining even more if I'd TPK'd them, so I pour myself a drink and shrug it off. Bunch of wusses.

<.<

[il-volpe]

@Arkandel said:

My experience has been pretty much the exact opposite. Someone makes an +event that seems so very ordinary that I expect something cool to happen. It's like... "beach party!". So, okay, I go, and since this is a game of personal horror I figure hey, maybe zombies will come out of the black waves, or maybe an amoeba-formed human-shaped abomination will start absorbing the flesh of horny teenagers.

See, I think that should happen /sometimes/ but not /every/ time. 'Cause not everything that's on-screen on the MUSH should be on-screen if it was a teevee show.

Though also, I am not running a game of personal horror, exactly. so I've been sort of bemused when I bring my staff alt to the festival and get pages asking me when I'm gonna have the dragon attack. Sure, sometimes dragons attack birthday parties.

@Bennie I do sort of try to differentiate social events from action ones, in the event descriptions. A regular beach party, that's just a beach party, I would describe as a beach party. If I intended a sea monster to flop up on the beach and start eating people, I'd add something like, "There will be blood!"

[Saulot]

@Pyrephox I may steal that idea for Goetia.

[Pyrephox]

@Huzuruth said:

@Pyrephox I may steal that idea for Goetia.

Steal away! It'd be interesting to see how it works!

[Arkandel]

@il-volpe said:

See, I think that should happen /sometimes/ but not /every/ time. 'Cause not everything that's on-screen on the MUSH should be on-screen if it was a teevee show.

I don't know if it first happened on TR or if it's just that I hadn't noticed it before (probably the latter) but it became really evident after Tier 2+ characters were introduced to the game there.

For those just joining us, TR had 'tier XP' awarded to Storytellers in exchange for regular plot running (2-3 a month) which weren't included in the normal tally which otherwise normalized the XP curve for the rest of the game. So some people started applying for these positions who then justified them with... well, bar scenes. I remember being invited to a FC pizza party - used by such a Tier character as one of their scenes - where literally the only story they told was to have that pizza delivered. Well, that was exciting.

See now, I readily acknowledge it's one of my big pet peeves but it seems to happen in every game where PrPs are rewarded somehow a lot more than in those where they are not. So while @il-volpe is right, not every scene should have something spectacular occur, there should be some excitement, a pivotal point, a cause for characters to grow, a puzzle... something prepared by the ST. Not goddamn pizza delivery.

I'm quite pleased by the system @Coin is implementing on Eldritch about it so far, I think it's a vast improvement over what we've been using so far.

[Coin]

For those who can't find said "system" on the Eldritch wiki (assuming anyone cares), it's basically based on, 'you get what you give', wherein everyone, including the storyteller, gets a basic amount of Beats (typically 1) for participating in a scene. Then, the highest amount of Beats gained through other means (Conditions, DramaFails, Aspirations, Taking Damage, etc.,) by any one player also gets awarded to the Storyteller, since it's as much an effort on their part, really. Let's dissect a little (and really I do this because the more times I explain it the easier it becomes to write up later officially):

• A character fulfills an Aspiration in your scene. You provided them with a means to further their story, so you also get a Beat.
• A character gets a Condition set on them. You provided the framework for that Condition, and are likely the source (via an NPC or whatever), so you also get a Beat.
• A character takes damage to their last three Health Levels. You provided a scene with significant risk to the characters, so you also get a Beat.
• A character fails a roll and converts it to a Dramatic Failure. You provided an experience wherein the player was comfortable putting their character at further risk (at your whim, no less), so you get a Beat.
• Et cetera. Other stuff of the like.

It's important to note that Eldritch will be tracking Player XP and Character XP separately, so the Beats the Storyteller is getting are spendable on any alt they may have. This, I feel, is a rather simple response to the age old question of 'gee, which character should I run this scene on?' Because why should it matter?

It's not perfect--but it rewards what I want to reward STs for. And if you don't feel like using the system to that extent, the reward is less, but you can still have fun and get a base reward for running the scene.

There will likely be a limit to how much XP anyone--player or storyteller--can gain from a single scene, but I haven't decided on a hard number yet. It will probably be 1 full Experience.

[Arkandel]

@Coin See, it might be harsh, but I even think the basic 1 Beat for participation should be done away with. Maybe it's my peeve talking though, so take the following with that particular grain of salt.

Any rewards offered in a game should be incentives toward some kind of behavior that benefits it in the long term. So grinding XP through faux-PrPs is not a desirable trait to begin with even though ues, one Beat isn't much compared to say, the three you can get in a more involved scene - but it adds up because it's so much easier to 'run' a birthday party than it is to do a murder mystery.

It comes down to the game's philosophy and other interrelated systems of course. On say, TR other than the afforementioned Tier issue all this is irrelevant since everyone ends up with the same XP regardless of effort, but on the new generation of 2.0 nWoD games where Beats are generated largely (or exclusively) through character activity giving people something for literally nothing seems to go against the overall direction. In other words sure, Bob went and risked his life against the Brood in a foul basement - get .8 XP! Yay! But... that is what Jane got for going to four parties.

Yeeeah I probably stress the importance of XP a lot in a thread that mainly discusses Storytelling but these games have a lot of moving parts and many of them are dependent on each other to some degree, you know? Which is why I made the disclaimer about the kind of MU you want to run; if the emphasis is on socialization and just having free-style engagement - maybe a Harry Potter game for something - it'd be less important to consider the dynamics of balancing rewards and activity than a nWoD one focusing on participation and character growth through risk and adversity.

[Miss Demeanor]

Doesn't the book itself suggest offering a Beat just for participation in an evening's activities, though? Granted, a 24/7 MU* doesn't have to grant a Beat for every day... but not every TT session is going to be some big danger or cunning riddle or whatever, either. Sometimes its just gathering information or schmoozing up an NPC or something else fairly rote/mundane.

[Coin]

@Arkandel said:

[...] but I even think the basic 1 Beat for participation should be done away with.

Not everyone wants to go through the whole shebang of applying Conditions, etc. It's just not something that some people are interested in. Conversely, some of these people (@EmmahSue, for example), are still amazing storytellers who want to and do run scenes for people and keep games going. I think it's important to provide a baseline for people who may want to make their effort more pose-driven rather than system-driven.

This is especially true while we are still in transition, so to speak (at least in the case of moving to Eldritch from, say, The Reach, the change is a stark contrast, and it's important to make sure that people whoa re used to one don't feel like they have an insurmountable wall of change to deal with before they can efficiently tell stories.

I have a whole separate rant about the concept of "rollplay vs. roleplay", a phrase I find abundantly stupid, but this doesn't actually have anything to do with that.

[Arkandel]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Doesn't the book itself suggest offering a Beat just for participation in an evening's activities, though? Granted, a 24/7 MU* doesn't have to grant a Beat for every day... but not every TT session is going to be some big danger or cunning riddle or whatever, either. Sometimes its just gathering information or schmoozing up an NPC or something else fairly rote/mundane.

Absolutely. I personally rarely run 'dangerous plots' per se (in the way that 'danger' translates to 'roll initiative') other than for the cultivation of a plot arc or because it really suits the story at that point. Adversity comes in many forms other than an axe aiming for your face, and social or investigative challenges are quite fine in my book.

Just not pizza parties, dammit.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel said:

@Coin See, it might be harsh, but I even think the basic 1 Beat for participation should be done away with. Maybe it's my peeve talking though, so take the following with that particular grain of salt.

Any rewards offered in a game should be incentives toward some kind of behavior that benefits it in the long term. So grinding XP through faux-PrPs is not a desirable trait to begin with even though ues, one Beat isn't much compared to say, the three you can get in a more involved scene - but it adds up because it's so much easier to 'run' a birthday party than it is to do a murder mystery.

It comes down to the game's philosophy and other interrelated systems of course. On say, TR other than the afforementioned Tier issue all this is irrelevant since everyone ends up with the same XP regardless of effort, but on the new generation of 2.0 nWoD games where Beats are generated largely (or exclusively) through character activity giving people something for literally nothing seems to go against the overall direction. In other words sure, Bob went and risked his life against the Brood in a foul basement - get .8 XP! Yay! But... that is what Jane got for going to four parties.

Yeeeah I probably stress the importance of XP a lot in a thread that mainly discusses Storytelling but these games have a lot of moving parts and many of them are dependent on each other to some degree, you know? Which is why I made the disclaimer about the kind of MU you want to run; if the emphasis is on socialization and just having free-style engagement - maybe a Harry Potter game for something - it'd be less important to consider the dynamics of balancing rewards and activity than a nWoD one focusing on participation and character growth through risk and adversity.

I would probably argue that /participation/ is an activity, flat out, that one wants to encourage in any MU*. Giving out the occasional 'free' beat for hanging out in a bar scene is still preferable, for the game, than those people who could have been at the bar instead hanging out in the OOC room, doing nothing. And, one thing I notice about games where XP only comes from 'important' scenes, is that people then tend to camp the OOC room and never come out unless there's XP in the offing, or it's someone who is either already in their clique or someone they want to TS asking for RP. Giving just that little bit of incentive for people to get out on the grid is, in and of itself, a good thing, even if they're not doing anything worldshaking.

[Coin]

@Pyrephox, @Miss-Demeanor: conversely, you could say that awarding passive experience (even if it does degrade over time to a mere 1 Beat a week) represents this sort of reward for "just participating".

[Pyrephox]

@Coin said:

@Pyrephox, @Miss-Demeanor: conversely, you could say that awarding passive experience (even if it does degrade over time to a mere 1 Beat a week) represents this sort of reward for "just participating".

I'd disagree. Because just being connected to the game doesn't necessary have anything to do with participating - if you're getting passive XP for just hanging out in the OOC, then the game is rewarding hanging out in the OOC. Even /more/ than playing, in some ways, because you're not putting your character at any risk, or risking playing with anyone who you might not love.

[Coin]

@Pyrephox, well, yeah, but with that mentality we should just do away with the passive rewards entirely. But then at this point, after the glut of XP that The Reach created, we'd have a damn mutiny on our hands, especially when people with more time to play surpassed people with busier lives with 10 or 20 times the amount of XP.

So while I agree with your sentiment, I think my comment still stands. It doesn't change my response to @Arkandel above, however, so it's moot, for the most part.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Coin If you're awarding Beats just for logging in, or even just having an unfrozen character... then that's a whole separate issue. That would be like... showing up the TT session and getting a Beat for playing Angry Birds on your phone the whole time. At that point, you aren't even awarding for participation, just for HAVING a character.

I'm pretty sure the 'Beat for participation' is intended for anyone who both showed up AND played their character during that session. Which is why I don't really have an issue with the occasional uneventful event. Sometimes it will JUST be a get-together, an infodump, a chance to meet new people, etc. At least they showed up. Posed. Did something other than idle and chat on channels.

[Arkandel]

@Miss-Demeanor Activity has to be balanced against playability though, right? You don't necessarily want people to cruise through and have the same rate of advancement as someone who actually puts effort into their characters (or you end up with TR where having a veteran PC meant nothing) but also you probably shouldn't let someone who lives online grow into demigod status compared to others. That's why periodic caps or diminishing returns are installed to keep things sane.

In Eldritch's case it means the first six months are pretty much a gimme. Even someone who doesn't play a lot will get to build a pretty decent mid-range character able to do at least one thing pretty damn well and possibly more if they plan their spends ahead of time. But after that the power curve will start to favor active oldbies a lot more, so even though whether that's a good thing or not depends on the kind of game you want, it's still something to consider.

[Miss Demeanor]

Ah, but awarding for participation favors everyone. Not just the uberactive. Sure, the people who show up to EVERY EVENT EVER are going to get more xp. That's... just a fact. But if you have someone with a limited amount of time to RP, are they more likely to sign up for the 4-5 hour dangerous combat scene or the party event where they can grab an extra Beat for just hanging out and socializing for an hour or two? If you stop rewarding for those mundane social events, then you're DEFINITELY going to see more of the HM deal where people felt they could never possibly compete with the 900+ xp dinos.

[Arkandel]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

But if you have someone with a limited amount of time to RP, are they more likely to sign up for the 4-5 hour dangerous combat scene or the party event where they can grab an extra Beat for just hanging out and socializing for an hour or two? If you stop rewarding for those mundane social events, then you're DEFINITELY going to see more of the HM deal where people felt they could never possibly compete with the 900+ xp dinos.

True, but I don't think that's a good solution for this particular problem.

About the the basic part of that argument, every game lacking a catch-up mechanism which rewards activity in any way will end up with dinos given enough time. There's no avoiding that, it'll happen. Any approaches toward that issue can't be solved through adjusting Storytelling rewards.

For the other part, you asked a rhetorical question but I don't agree that the obvious answer to it is the one you're (I think) implying. If I have limited time in my day to play games - and I do! - then the last thing I want to do with my evening is to sit at a mundane party where nothing happens. I'd want to invest those hours into something with meat in it that can change my characters, help him bond with his pack/coterie and create RP hooks to use in my actual mundane socialization scenes when there's are no PrPs happening.

You know those bar talks where we have nothing to talk about except the weather? Well, they get so much better if instead I get to pose going over to the other person and go "hey, so there are Brood everywhere in those catacombs, did you know that?! They nearly took my head off!".

Compare that to the vast potential of walking up to that same person and going "uh, so I had pizza last night". Those are not great returns for an evening's work - not in XP, not in RP, not in anything. At least in my book, people's milage may vary.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel said:

Those are not great returns for an evening's work - not in XP, not in RP, not in anything. At least in my book, >people's milage may vary.

I think the 'in my book' thing is relevant here. There are a number of people who I know, who much prefer the social scenes over the combat scenes - hell, half the time I do, although that's more that combat scenes are very easy to run poorly, and a poorly run/played combat scene is both boring and actively frustrating, while bad bar RP is only boring.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Arkandel True. But you're just as capable of making those mundane events fun as the ST is. Just because they didn't PLAN something big or special for them doesn't mean you can't use it as a platform for some fun of your own. Hell, I do that with almost every Vampire event I've signed up for in the past three months! Boring Praxis meeting? Add 1 pissed off Bruja with authority issues. Shake. Serve!

In other words, you can either go 'so, uh, I had pizza last night' OR you can go 'so, uh, I had pizza last night... and then I started plotting Jim's social ruination by spreading a few well-placed rumors about him to Carol and Jane, and I let Tom know just what Jim thinks of his political views'. Hell, you could even just start a food fight if you're that bored. One thing TR taught me? Be your own fun, don't expect anyone to hand it to you. If an event isn't worthy of a Beat, in your estimation, make it so!