Echoes in the Mists - Discussion

Zaroot · Jan 23, 2019, 12:30 AM

@arkandel I have no interest in vampire and werewolf after years upon years of dealing with it on other games, so it's a moot point in my case.

Killer Klown · Jan 23, 2019, 1:42 PM

@arkandel At least Mage 2e did a lot to cut down on the 'best of everything' mechanics; but still, the amount of work necessary to implement and run a Mage sphere would probably equal all the other supers they've got going combined, so I can understand why folks don't want to push into it.

skew · Jan 23, 2019, 1:42 PM

@killer-klown very much agree. Mage is awesome! But very hard on a MU. You basically need to severely limit what you can do (which, then, that's MORE work), or a team of STs to work on mage specifically.

Tho... changeling 2e is our, right?

Lisse24 · Jan 23, 2019, 2:41 PM

I'm also very much against tossing a sphere in just because. If you have a faction in a game, you best know why they're in the game and how their players are going to interact with the other factions.

Less is more.

Doozer · Jan 23, 2019, 2:49 PM

Mage would be awesome single sphere.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying my time there. I don't get much time to rp but the scenes I've had were with some hilarious characters.

skew · Jan 23, 2019, 2:53 PM

@doozer said in Echoes in the Mists - CoD 2e MU:

Mage would be awesome single sphere.

Were you on Fallen World? I'm not saying we did everything right, but it was rough ina single sphere mage game. Even with low level magic (people starter at 3-4 in their arcanum), it was still a lot of "hand wave and the problem is fixed". Then at higher levels it was trying to continually reshape the entire world... while 20 mages do it all at once. It got crazy and hard and

Doozer · Jan 23, 2019, 3:01 PM

@skew nah I didnt get the opportunity. Bummer. I can see that would get insane.

Killer Klown · Jan 23, 2019, 3:12 PM

@skew It is awesome and hella fun; and in 2e they do emphasize focusing on Rotes rather than having spontaneous magic being the be-all/end-all. Still, despite that and not being able to knock out the 15-power rolls like you used to there's still a lot of scope creep.
I remember getting into a discussion back in the days of oWoD where we basically came to the conclusion that, as the splats progressed, they moved further and further away from 'real world' concerns. Like, Vampire was very grounded in what happened in the mortal world both in a proactive and reactive sense. Werewolf was more reactive in terms of the real world and tended to focus more on internal/spirit matters. Mage started to get more and more removed as the power grew. Changeling and Wraith were flat out gonzo - to the point that Wraith could have almost zero interaction with the real world beyond events when your Fetters came into play. That's sort of how I'd see a nMage game going, too - dealing with reality is just too easy to the point of falling to handwavium <which is probably why so many things like that are potential Hubris sins>; the real meat of it should be dealing with Mage foo - which would provide it's own challenge due to the fact that the opposition has the same tricks up their sleeves as you do.

Ganymede · Jan 23, 2019, 3:45 PM

@skew said in Echoes in the Mists - CoD 2e MU:

Were you on Fallen World? I'm not saying we did everything right, but it was rough ina single sphere mage game. Even with low level magic (people starter at 3-4 in their arcanum), it was still a lot of "hand wave and the problem is fixed".

You all did everything right on Fallen World, as far as I'm concerned.

There's nothing wrong with low-level magic. Where things go wrong is where people expect to be doing high-level magic in a game calculated to be low-level. And then they gripe and whine about it, rather than dealing with it and, omg, maybe actually engaging in troupe-play instead of solo-ing.

My PC had a particular set of skills, skills which were acquired over her history that made her a nightmare to deal with in combat or a chase. But her obvious weaknesses were very obvious, and that's what made her very enjoyable to play. Put her in a team with a couple of magic-minded folks, and they would be nigh-unstoppable.

As applied to this game, Mages would have their run of the place, easily. So I think it was a wise, calculated decision not to bring them on board.

Arkandel · Jan 23, 2019, 3:42 PM

@skew said in Echoes in the Mists - CoD 2e MU:

Even with low level magic (people starter at 3-4 in their arcanum), it was still a lot of "hand wave and the problem is fixed". Then at higher levels it was trying to continually reshape the entire world... while 20 mages do it all at once. It got crazy and hard and

See that's obviously a real issue too, but what I think is worse is how Mage... takes over when more spheres are involved. At least in a single-sphere game there's some parity yet once you mix it up it gets tricky - like you're playing an Uratha shaman when this Thyrsus kid walks over and can do stuff you can't even imagine with Spirit.

That sort of thing bums people out since it relies on folks sharing the plot and letting others have their moment to shine, too, which... let's just say doesn't always happen. And in turn it creates a different disparity too - numbers. You start seeing folks flocking to Mage because of what it can do, skewing the demographic as other spheres become less frequented and then it's that classic catch-22 where newcomers don't join because of it, perpetuating the situation.

Roz · Jan 23, 2019, 5:12 PM

Is this person's ad thread really the place to hash out the eternal Mage sphere arguments?

Ganymede · Jan 23, 2019, 5:29 PM

@roz said in Echoes in the Mists - CoD 2e MU:

Is this person's ad thread really the place to hash out the eternal Mage sphere arguments?

I'd really wish you weren't so sensible.

Arkandel · Jan 23, 2019, 6:20 PM

@roz said in Echoes in the Mists - Discussion:

Is this person's ad thread really the place to hash out the eternal Mage sphere arguments?

I apologize, I hadn't noticed. I thought it was the existing discussion thread - all the subsequent posts have been moved now.

(We've be locking the Ad threads but then not even the OPs can edit or add replies to them if we did that)

Roz · Jan 23, 2019, 6:22 PM

@ganymede said in Echoes in the Mists - Discussion:

@roz said in Echoes in the Mists - CoD 2e MU:

Is this person's ad thread really the place to hash out the eternal Mage sphere arguments?

I'd really wish you weren't so sensible.

TOUGH LUCK, LAWYERBOT

Thenomain · Jan 23, 2019, 7:47 PM

It's no longer in the ad thread so hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa...waffles.

Auspice · Jan 23, 2019, 7:50 PM

Some people just enjoy playing Mage.

From the day to day to the street level solutions to the great cosmic power......

And yes. Some of those people are shit lords about it. But there are people in every sphere who ruin it for the rest of the class.

Let people enjoy things ffs.

I think that's the worst part of this ongoing discussion. That whenever "I would like to play mage" comes up, someone comes in and goes "ugh mage is terrible and ruins everything"

Well aren't you a bundle of sunshine shitting on someone's day.

Yes. Mage can be an 'insta solve' to mundane problems. The issue is when STs for Mage try to write plot as if it's Hunters or Vampires or... You gotta wrote Mage problems for Mage solutions. That's all. I've seen it done. And man oh man I've got some plots rattling around in my head. Shit. I even have a metaplot in my head for a Mage game (only problem with it is that any Mortal or M+ PCs would be short-term......).

Roz · Jan 23, 2019, 7:52 PM

@auspice I mean, I think that hopping onto someone's ad thread and being like "but why don't you have the sphere I want!" is also kind of shitting on someone's thing. It boggles me every time it happens on every new WoD game thread.

Thenomain · Jan 23, 2019, 7:52 PM

@auspice said in Echoes in the Mists - Discussion:

Let people enjoy things ffs.

Filtering out the people who ruin it for everyone else is not a trivial task. Sometimes the easiest way is to not invite the bad with the good until you're ready for it, then setting up a very clear set of parameters and dealing with the jerkwads who don't want to follow it.

skew · Jan 23, 2019, 8:23 PM

@roz said in Echoes in the Mists - Discussion:

@auspice I mean, I think that hopping onto someone's ad thread and being like "but why don't you have the sphere I want!" is also kind of shitting on someone's thing. It boggles me every time it happens on every new WoD game thread.

What Roz said. I don't see "Eugh, but Mage sucks on a MU" as less valid than "Eugh, why didn't you put Mage in your MU".

Auspice · Jan 23, 2019, 8:26 PM

@skew said in Echoes in the Mists - Discussion:

@roz said in Echoes in the Mists - Discussion:

@auspice I mean, I think that hopping onto someone's ad thread and being like "but why don't you have the sphere I want!" is also kind of shitting on someone's thing. It boggles me every time it happens on every new WoD game thread.

What Roz said. I don't see "Eugh, but Mage sucks on a MU" as less valid than "Eugh, why didn't you put Mage in your MU".

Oh, I don't disagree with that.

But before threads got cleaned up someone asked if Hunter was still on the game and that discussion didn't devolve rapidly into 'why this is so terrible' etc etc it was just a simple 'No, we removed it.' over and done.