How To Treat Your Players Right

[Tinuviel]

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

I do not think your concept of "appropriate" is appropriate. Neither does Ganymede or Faraday.

Then what is my concept of appropriate?

I'm not interested in playing this game. Defend your thesis or not, but I won't respond to this Right-Wing Playbook nonsense.

What's so difficult to understand about the concept "we want to see that our complaints are actually listened to and the problem to stop" followed by "if we don't see problems stopping at all when complaints are made, why should we complain?"

ETA: The point of the thread being 'encouraging people to submit complaints.' It's not a thought experiment or a mental exercise. It's a thing that actually happens. How can we encourage people to submit complaints when they don't always get to see the results of their complaints? That's a legitimate question.

[Thenomain]

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

I do not think your concept of "appropriate" is appropriate. Neither does Ganymede or Faraday.

Then what is my concept of appropriate?

I'm not interested in playing this game. Defend your thesis or not, but I won't respond to this Right-Wing Playbook nonsense.

What's so difficult to understand about the concept "we want to see that our complaints are actually listened to and the problem to stop" followed by "if we don't see problems stopping at all when complaints are made, why should we complain?"

The problem isn't the understanding. It's not difficult to understand. All three of us have shown that we understand. What we don't is agree with the conclusion as a solution to the problem.

[Tinuviel]

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

What we don't is agree with the conclusion as a solution to the problem.

I never offered a solution. I was asking for one.

[Thenomain]

@Tinuviel

"if we don't see problems stopping at all when complaints are made, why should we complain?"

This is an actual Begging The Question. You've given 'we must see the problems stopping' (and all of your examples have been them stopping right away) as the solution to the question of "why should we ask?"

Faraday's Answer: Ask staff. Also, not my problem.
Ganymede's Answer: Ask staff. Also, Dadaism.
Thenomain's Answer: Be more patient. Also possibly, ask staff.

If people don't trust staff enough to ask, that's a problem that has no real solution. I've been thanked by players for not publicizing a problem.

But it comes down to: You cannot expect anyone to be psychic. Even I, with my unusual belief that I should try harder to know what's going on in my own game, have to rely on people to approach me if they want my help.

If this isn't good enough for you, I personally don't see why it's not good enough for you.

[Ganymede]

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

How can we encourage people to submit complaints when they don't always get to see the results of their complaints? That's a legitimate question.

I don't think there's a good answer.

It can be discouraging. I'm involved in a case where someone was engaged in widespread investor fraud. My client and others have reported that someone to law enforcement. We have a bench warrant for his failure to appear at a contempt hearing. Yet law enforcement is taking no effort to cooperate with us to get this guy picked up and hauled in for questioning, even though everything's been set up.

This is where staff investment comes in. This is not to say that Faraday's more hands-off approach besmirches her level of investment, by the way; rather, I had faith, and still have faith, that Faraday handles complaints with the same diligence that I would expect out of myself. People with less experience or less faith may feel differently, but the only thing that can be reasonably expected from Faraday is that she handles the matter reasonably. Not as I want; not as others want; but reasonably and within the confines of what she's comfortable doing.

I'm more hands-on, confrontational, and, in some ways, vindictive. Some people like that; some people don't, and think I'm a judgmental, harsh bitch. But my time is valuable ($250-$300 an hour, actually), so I prefer to spend it on the players that will work with me and others well, and, frankly, I don't lose a lot of sleep over removing problem players from my spheres or games, even if they may have friends that would attest otherwise. I have come to learn, in my old age, that I cannot, and will not, please everyone.

Every staffer is different and will engage differently. Some may prefer Faraday's approach, some may prefer mine -- some may even prefer the staff on Haven. As long as staff make a policy and follow it, I think that's all one can, and should, reasonably expect.

Everything else, I think, is personal.

[Tinuviel]

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

This is an actual Begging The Question.

Huh. Never thought I'd see one of those in the wild. I certainly didn't intend it to be submitted that way, but you're right. I also didn't intend to imply an instantaneous 'them stopping.'

I am, perhaps, too used to dealing with inept staff that just outright ignore complaints (on the rare occasions I make them). So I apologise for my... less than professional approach.

[faraday]

@Ganymede said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

This is not to say that Faraday's more hands-off approach

Just want to be clear: If someone comes to me with an actual complaint that involved them personally I am anything but 'hands-off'. I will deal with a problem directly. Where I draw the line is vaguebook third-party whisper mills about alleged issues or spending precious minutes of my life wondering: "Gee, I wonder why Ganymede quit. Was it because of unmentioned harassment or do they just not love me any more?"

[Thenomain]

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

I am, perhaps, too used to dealing with inept staff that just outright ignore complaints (on the rare occasions I make them). So I apologise for my... less than professional approach.

I empathize, which is why I'm focusing more than I usually would. Expecting shitty staff has made me paranoid when staff has behaved like shitty staff does. It's a false analogy, just because staff says they don't care about my problems doesn't mean they don't want to solve problems. Just not those problems.

Too many WoD games have pissed in the soup, and it makes people like us touchy, but to be trusted you must also trust.

[Tinuviel]

@Thenomain There is one remaining thing that bothers me regarding this conversation, however.

"Right Wing"? Really?

[Ganymede]

@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

Just want to be clear: If someone comes to me with an actual complaint that involved them personally I am anything but 'hands-off'.

"Hands-off" was a poor use of language. "Fairness-minded" is probably more accurate. I meant to emphasize that you and I differ in approach, and that I would probably try to locate the victims for the purpose of asking them questions about the accused.

[Auspice]

Here's the thing:

I fully believe that assuring someone that Staff is handling it, looking into the issue, and will speak to the person in question (if so warranted) counts as 'seeing results' for any reasonable individual.

Many of us have seen complaints go into black holes. +requests filed and closed with a scripted 'Thank you for your report.'

All it takes is a personalized: 'I'm sorry that you're dealing with this. I understand this can be difficult and we thank you for coming forward: we had no idea this was going on and we will certainly look into the matter.'

Making someone feel heard is doing something. But those simplistic 'Thank you for your report' job closures? That's empty. That's what leads people to grasping around, trying to get answers elsewhere. Because they don't feel like they were heard.

[Bananerz]

1. Base. I want transparency, candidness and a minimum level of mutual respect from the people who run the game I play on. I know I’m a guest, and the game is not made for me, it was made for them as the creators. Likewise, I owe it to the people and fellow players on the game I play on to give that to them in return.

2. Fix it first myself. If I have a problem with someone, I should take steps myself first to fix the situation. This could mean the game gives me tools and rules to support blocking people I don’t want to interact with on an IC or OOC basis (except in the situation of avoiding a consequence to my own idiocy or action). A clear and easy to understand set of policies regarding appropriate behavior and expectations of players and administrators is good. Help files for the code regarding the tools and rules is also beneficial.

3. Get help. If I can’t resolve the issue myself, I can follow the tools and rules of the game and submit a complaint with a suggested course of actions to be reviewed that deal with the issue. Having admin step in as arbitrators on situations sometimes is warranted, not always. I should be able to show that I’ve tried to fix it myself with step 2, and that I’ve been following step 1. If I’m an idiot and call out idiot behavior in others, then I don’t see why I should be getting help for the same issue I’m causing others. If I haven’t tried to fix the situation myself, then I might not be mature enough for roleplaying in this environment (I am not a fan of someone submitting complaints on behalf of others unless they are direct witnesses). If I’ve done these things though, then I should feel that admin will review the situation and abide by their own policies in dealing with it. I should know that my issue would be reviewed within X days, that I won’t get a direct response on what action if any has been taken but that I will be notified that it has been reviewed and acted on. At some point, I might not agree with the decision by admin and that’s okay because it is their game and I’m a player. I can choose to not play there, just as they can choose how to use their thinly spread resources to deal with all sorts of issues and creative/ooc direction I’m not privy to.

There’s lots of examples of bad admins and bad players. There’s a lot more examples of great admins and great players, we just sort of hone in with our horoscope mindset that the last negative moment is representative of something greater. If the hobby was that bad, I don’t think it’d have last this long with the growth rate it has. I give the benefit of the doubt to games, especially when I see that they take steps to empower their players instead of being gatekeepers.

[Thenomain]

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Thenomain There is one remaining thing that bothers me regarding this conversation, however.

"Right Wing"? Really?

I was wondering when you'd comment on that.

I saw you saying, "Tell me what I'm saying so I can take the high ground telling you that you're wrong and make you look like an idiot." Total Right-Wing Playbook stuff right now, tho it's not limited to any one group.

Sorry. ... Kind of.

[Tinuviel]

@Thenomain The intent was more "what are you thinking that I'm saying." Can't communicate properly if there's a misconnection. If I wanted to make someone look like an idiot I'd just go to the Hog Pit. It's easy there.

[silverfox]

I'm someone who has major issues talking with staffers. It's my own personal issue, and so I'll totally not report someone for behavior because I can't find a 'rule' they've broken, or I'm afraid that I'll be told in return that I was the one in the wrong the whole time and that I need to appologize to them for what happened.

If I did finally gather up my courage to report something then this:

@Auspice said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

All it takes is a personalized: 'I'm sorry that you're dealing with this. I understand this can be difficult and we thank you for coming forward: we had no idea this was going on and we will certainly look into the matter.'

is exactly what I'd want. "We heard you." Then whatever comes after, comes after.

[Seraphim73]

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@faraday On the flip side to that, if we the general player base know about the complaint (and if it's complaint worthy, gossip has already started about the behaviour) and then see staff do... nothing about it. Why would we complain if it happens to us?

I would always inform the person who registered the complaint of the action that I took, whether it was providing an unofficial warning to the person, adding a note to their 'file,' giving them some time off from the game, banning them, or whatever.

Not only is this polite and professional (and lets them gauge your actions and see if they think it's enough), but it also means that if they're talking with their friends about the situation, and their friends complain about nothing being done, they can go, "Oh, actually Staff told them that they're being watched and that if they get another serious report, they're gone." (Yes, this might encourage fraudulent reports, but that's why Staff needs to be investigators as well as judges -- thank you @Ganymede).

[Pandora]

Would it be possible to allow players to log their pages during a session? The logs could be purged upon logging out if nothing amiss happened, but could be accessed by staff if a player flagged their attention to it.

Making the process as hands-off as possible, without having to type up a complaint, and instead letting staff see for themselves what's happening, could help those people gun-shy about approaching staff.

[Wretched]

@Pandora Sorta like the last pose code? But for personal page conversations? I think Skews +txt stuff has some functionality. I like the idea.

[Ganymede]

@Wretched @Pandora

I concur. I think it's a very, very good idea.

[Arkandel]

This might be an issue solveable through code without sacrificing privacy.

Let's say I'm about to have a conversation that might turn ugly with @Ganymede. I type something like +logstuff start before I go into it, then it will continue to get logged server-side until I hit +logstuff end or I quit.

Once either of those things happen (I toggle it off or quit) the game takes the logfile, runs it through GPG clearsign (using the game's own key) and e-mail it to me, then delete the file. Since the file is digitally signed it's trivial to validate it wasn't altered after its generation, so I can submit it to staff later on to show Gany's toxic behavior.

The issue here is we can't have encryption at rest for the file itself (well, we can, but players would need to have their own GPG public keys and that gets pretty technical for some) so if staff can't be trusted to have those plaintext files automatically deleted after e-mailing them out then privacy can be invaded. Then again logging on someone else's host running code you can't see always requires a degree of trust, so...