How To Treat Your Players Right

Three-Eyed Crow

@faraday
All I expect staff to do is to keep the complaint saved somewhere, remember it happened, and look at the player complained about in a different light if other stuff comes in. And very, very often, it will.

faraday

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

All I expect staff to do is to keep the complaint saved somewhere, remember it happened, and look at the player complained about in a different light if other stuff comes in. And very, very often, it will.

Absolutely. But confronting the accused based on flimsy evidence that may or may not be hearsay and is not by itself sufficient for disciplinary action? That does not strike me as a great idea. It seems more likely to cause drama back on Susie (after all, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the complaint came from) than to stop the behavior in question. YMMV obviously. (not directed at you specifically)

Tinuviel

@faraday On the flip side to that, if we the general player base know about the complaint (and if it's complaint worthy, gossip has already started about the behaviour) and then see staff do... nothing about it. Why would we complain if it happens to us?

Thenomain

@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

"Hey dude, apparently you're being a dick. Stop being a dick." It's not difficult.

Uh huh. And when they say, "What, me? I'm not being a dick. What are you even talking about?" Then what?

You inform them that they are on your radar and hope for the best. What else can you do but hope for the best? Even banning is hoping for the best that you did the right thing.

And then if it happens a second time, you've gone from "suspicion" to "pattern". Addressed earlier:

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

People who are that devious will eventually cause a pattern

At this point you can press them harder. Sure you can press them harder earlier, but at a much higher risk of being outright wrong.

Sometimes it's worth the risk. Sometimes it's not. You have your style. I have mine. About the only people I trust to get it right the first time almost every time are @Ganymede and @EmmahSue.

faraday

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@faraday On the flip side to that, if we the general player base know about the complaint (and if it's complaint worthy, gossip has already started about the behaviour) and then see staff do... nothing about it. Why would we complain if it happens to us?

Well firstly, how would you know that staff did nothing about it? You wouldn't know if, as @Three-Eyed-Crow said, every complaint gets put into a file. You wouldn't know whether staff talked to the player in question or not. You wouldn't know if staff had talked to Susie or not. You wouldn't know if staff had started watching what the player says more critically. All you know is whether the person had been banned or publicly flogged or something.

As @Seraphim73 mentioned, there's a big scale between "nothing" and "banned". If folks are going to assume that anything short of "banned" is no action at all and refrain from complaining because of that? I can't help them, and that's on them, not me.

Ganymede

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

On the flip side to that, if we the general player base know about the complaint (and if it's complaint worthy, gossip has already started about the behaviour) and then see staff do... nothing about it. Why would we complain if it happens to us?

Act I, Scene 1

Tinuviel: Did you talk to Faraday about Arkandel harassing me by pages?
Ganymede: Yes.
Tinuviel: And what did she say?
Ganymede: She said that you should talk to her about it so she can get more details. Also, purple monkey dishwasher.
Tinuviel: But I don't want to talk to her.
Ganymede: Then why do you expect her to do anything for you?

FIN

Tinuviel

@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

Well firstly, how would you know that staff did nothing about it?

If staff does nothing about it, and the behaviour is enough to warrant a complaint even in the most vague of senses, the behaviour will continue. That won't go unnoticed.

@Ganymede That's cute, but doesn't at all relate to what I said.

Ganymede

@Tinuviel

If you say so. I think people would disagree with you.

I'll tell you what, though. Let me add to it just for you.

Act I, Scene 2

Auspice: Did you talk to Faraday about Arkandel harassing Tinuviel by pages?
Ganymede: Yes.
Auspice: And what did she say?
Ganymede: She said that Tinuviel should talk to her about it so she can get more details. Also, purple monkey dishwasher.
Auspice: But Tinuviel doesn't want to talk to Faraday.
Ganymede: Then he shouldn't expect her to do anything for him. Also, quit being nosy.

FIN

Tinuviel

@Ganymede said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Tinuviel

If you say so. I think people would disagree with you.

I was specifically talking about people not involved in the initial complaint.

Thenomain

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Ganymede That's cute, but doesn't at all relate to what I said.

I disagree with you.

You disagree on Ganymede's style, fine, but I don't think players have the inalienable right to complete transparency. You can't make anyone do anything except not log in. And sometimes that's a game of whack-a-mole.

Sometimes I wonder if you've even tried to run a game, dude.

--

edit: The conceit of Gany's example was someone not involved in the complaint paging staff asking about it.

Ganymede

@Tinuviel

Okay. Let me add another scene.

Act I, Scene 3

Auspice: Did Ganymede talk to Faraday about Arkandel harassing Tinuviel by pages?
Mietze: Yes.
Auspice: And what did Faraday say?
Mietze: How the fuck should I know? Mind your own damned business or ask Ganymede yourself, I ain't her mother.
Auspice: You're old enough to be her mother.
Mietze: ... fuck you.

FIN

Tinuviel

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

but I don't think players have the inalienable right to complete transparency

Nor did I suggest that they do. I was talking primarily about appearances. If it is known that the behaviour is happening, and it is known that a complaint has been filed, and nothing appears to be done about it in that the behaviour has continued, why would people bother putting in complaints?

faraday

I can't even keep track of @Ganymede's examples here, lol.

To me it's very simple.

If someone is being a creepster to you, and you don't report them, how can you expect staff to do anything about it?

If someone is being a creepster to someone else, and you report them but the 'someone else' won't corroborate the report, then IMHO it's not really fair to accuse staff of doing nothing as long as they made a good faith effort to investigate and monitor the situation.

If everyone is going to throw up their hands and say "Well he wasn't banned after one complaint, why even bother?" That is not my problem.

Thenomain

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

I was talking primarily about appearances

And you appear to be argumentative for no reason.

Or it would be better to say: You appear to me to be argumentative for no reason.

If your thesis is that staff is responsible for the court of public opinion, I counter that people are going to believe what they want even when it's not reasonable to do so.

There is no 100% responsibility here. Because there is no clear answer. Looking for one is exacerbating the problem by putting up unreasonable expectations.

Ganymede

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

Nor did I suggest that they do. I was talking primarily about appearances. If it is known that the behaviour is happening, and it is known that a complaint has been filed, and nothing appears to be done about it in that the behaviour has continued, why would people bother putting in complaints?

Act I, Scene 4

Didi: Did Ganymede talk to Faraday about Arkandel harassing Tinuviel by pages?
Gogo: Yes.
Didi: Nothing has happened!
Gogo: How do you know?
Didi: Because Arkandel is still here.
Gogo: Does that mean that Faraday took no action? Maybe she spoke to Arkandel. Maybe Arkandel stopped his behavior.
Didi: (swaps hats with Gogo) Well, shall we go?
Gogo: Yes, let's go.

They do not move.

FIN

Tinuviel

@Thenomain My thesis, to borrow your term, is that some assurance needs to be obviously made that complaints will be handled appropriately. We, the players, don't see behind the curtain. We'd need assurance that complaints are actually being handled - far too often they're left to sit and rot even with logs and essays and everything else that's asked about.

The point of this entire discussion was, partly, talking about ways to encourage people to feel safe and comfortable in submitting complaints.

Thenomain

@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

If everyone is going to throw up their hands and say "Well he wasn't banned after one complaint, why even bother?" That is not my problem.

Some of the best players are the least tolerant toward bullshit, and if you're losing the players you want to keep then you better damn well pay attention even if people aren't coming to you.

That is, sometimes you have to make things your problem. It's like any code that even if it works does not work the way you want. That's why you write unit tests. That's why you listen to user experiences.

--

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Thenomain My thesis, to borrow your term, is that some assurance needs to be obviously made that complaints will be handled appropriately.

I do not think your concept of "appropriate" is appropriate. Neither does Ganymede or Faraday. So how do you deal with the universe when it does not work the way you want?

Tinuviel

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

I do not think your concept of "appropriate" is appropriate. Neither does Ganymede or Faraday.

Then what is my concept of appropriate?

faraday

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

Some of the best players are the least tolerant toward bullshit, and if you're losing the players you want to keep then you better damn well pay attention even if people aren't coming to you.

No, really, it's not my problem. If you'd rather leave my game than talk to me about a problem you're having, I'll miss you but that's your choice. I'm not going to chase people down or try to play Sherlock Holmes of Interpersonal Drama.

Thenomain

@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

@Thenomain said in How To Treat Your Players Right:

I do not think your concept of "appropriate" is appropriate. Neither does Ganymede or Faraday.

Then what is my concept of appropriate?

I'm not interested in playing this game. Defend your thesis or not, but I won't respond to this Right-Wing Playbook nonsense.