Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?

Thenomain

Better not let @Glitch hear you say that.

Dark Archon

@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

Is there really a difference?

Yeah. A GMPC gets a lot more attention than a normal NPC, and is regarded as sacrosanct in the way that a player character would be.

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Arkandel

@RDC That's fine, but can we keep things vaguely on-topic in this thread please? There are better places to specifically discuss and criticize games.

Sparks

I would counter this; there's times where, for plot purposes, it's useful for an NPC to be disguised for some particular interactions and not OOCly painted with a neon "HI I AM A PLOT NPC" sign. If you have a particular NPC who is trying to be like "I am a normal bartender, yep" for plot reasons during a specific arc, if they are OOCly marked as an NPC people will often find reasons to "intuit" that something is up and act differently around the perfectly normal bartender. It's not even maliciously done, but OOC knowledge will make even tiny IC hints seem much more obvious than they really are. So I actually don't know that I think I agree entirely with saying every single identity an NPC might assume for a given long-term plot must be OOCly advertised as an NPC at all times.

But even if they aren't explicitly called out as such, I feel like you should hold yourself to whatever rules you would as a clearly marked NPC. If that's "the NPC never gets to have the spotlight on an on-screen scene, and is there to facilitate the player story" then you should stick to that even if the NPC is wearing a PC cover identity. If they have access to more than PCs do then they still count as an NPC and you need to follow whatever your rules for NPCs are.

Tinuviel

@Sparks said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

It's not even maliciously done, but OOC knowledge will make even tiny IC hints seem much more obvious than they really are

And lord help you if your NPC says something that is incorrect because the character themselves doesn't know the truth...

Thenomain

@Sparks said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

It's not even maliciously done, but OOC knowledge will make even tiny IC hints seem much more obvious than they really are

Because there are players who play against the GM, sometimes not even maliciously. If the GM has a mystery, the players, not the characters, are trying to figure it out. So many D&D modules are built around this conceit.

I’ve played games where the GM is (are) working so closely with the players that this drama goes away and everyone wants to find out what the characters do. I love this kind of storyteller. (On my list: @Ganymede , Troy, and yes, even Ernst’s player once.)

@Tinuviel said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

And lord help you if your NPC says something that is incorrect because the character themselves doesn't know the truth...

We need a way to gently break it to people that NPCs are sometimes parts of the living world and not cartoon characters or plot dispensers.

The NPCs in Haunted Memories’ Changeling sphere may not have been nuanced, but when they stabbed you in the back you weren’t surprised.

L. B. Heuschkel

I am still reading through this rather interesting discussion, but I think my take on the original question goes something like...

Yes, there is a difference. An NPC is a plot driver. No one owns him but the story. He is a literary device that staff uses as a sock puppet to propel the story onwards. He is not the antagonist, we don't get inside his head, we don't get to know him intimately (in either meaning of the word).

When we do -- he stops being an NPC. He may become a staff PC, someone who interacts part as a character, part as a plot driver -- a favoured barkeep, gossip, or other person whose function is to info dump on the real characters, through his interactions. This is fine.

The instant he starts having an agenda of his own, roleplay-wise, he is a full PC and should be treated like one.

As an example,

The Guild Master of the Assassins' Guild having tea with my Assassin character translates to a politely worded, stiff upper lip shitstorm coming my way. This is the action of an NPC, responding to my character's actions the day before.

Said Guild Master deciding that since we're collegues, we should sit down for a game of whist afterwards, during which he'll more or less accidentally divulge various information I may need. Now we're crossing into staff PC territory, and the person playing the staff PC needs to keep their mind very straight about what they're going for here, or we end up in --

Said Guild Master deciding we're best friends and by the way, let's go have sex. Definitely, decidedly in PC territory. So far in, there is no return.

... And now I'm going to go wash my eyes in bleach because really, Lord Downey is 55 years old and keeps two very large dogs in his bedroom and I took this example to somewhere my mind is now screaming to get away from.

Derp

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

An NPC is a plot driver. No one owns him but the story. He is a literary device that staff uses as a sock puppet to propel the story onwards. He is not the antagonist, we don't get inside his head, we don't get to know him intimately (in either meaning of the word).
When we do -- he stops being an NPC. He may become a staff PC, someone who interacts part as a character, part as a plot driver -- a favoured barkeep, gossip, or other person whose function is to info dump on the real characters, through his interactions.

See, this is kind of where I disagree. Just because an NPC is a presence with a personality and characters can get to know them well doesn't automatically make them a staff PC. Think of...

Well, you mentioned 'favored barkeep'. Think of Mac, from the Dresden Files. Would we consider him a staff PC, or an NPC? I would absolutely consider him an NPC. He has a relationship with some of the characters, but his main purpose is to be background.

L. B. Heuschkel

@Derp I'm a little pressed there, because I have in fact never read the Dresden Files and don't know the character.

I am leaning towards Mac the generic Barkeep of, uh, the Hamburg Files instead, can be both. He may be an NPC who only really interacts for plot reasons. He could also be a staff PC who regularly strikes up chats with players for no particular reason, has an encouraging word for everyone, and cheap beer on Wednesdays.

What he's not, though, is a PC who suddenly decides to sell his bar, become a travelling salesman, and marry Agnes the player character.

Derp

@L-B-Heuschkel

In this case, I used Mac for a specific reason:

Mac has a relationship with Harry Dresden, and will sometimes help him out if he has some information, but has to be careful about how he does so because he has Accorded Neutral Territory...

BUT he also has his own agenda, and often politics in the background, showing up with new information and actions that he's taken, which on a MU often translates to 'has to interact with PCs to get that done'. He's a mover in the world.

JinShei

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

Said Guild Master deciding we're best friends and by the way, let's go have sex. Definitely, decidedly in PC territory. So far in, there is no return.

... And now I'm going to go wash my eyes in bleach because really, Lord Downey is 55 years old and keeps two very large dogs in his bedroom and I took this example to somewhere my mind is now screaming to get away from.

As the NPC-running staffer for this NPC, I can say definitely NEVER going to play mini-golf with Andrew on this.

For me, it is as @Derp says - Mac the barman, or Igor the barman, are NPCs with their own agenda and issues. But they do exist in that role, with clearly defined roles. Igor might pass on information, or sew a body part back on, or make a cocktail with an interesting name but for me, on an OOC level, I am using him to have a direct impact on the storyline. So Downey sitting down with Andrew had a precise and deliberate impact: to get Andrew to investigate by telling him absolutely not to.

L. B. Heuschkel

@JinShei Yes. My point is, Downey acts as an NPC. Go minigolfing, drinking, sexing, whatever, just for the fun and RP pleasure of it, and he's crossed way out of that territory.

Someone wrote, about 50 pages previous, that you need to decide whether you're wearing your GM cap or your player cap. That's a good way of putting it. Crossing that line is a good way to get me to run away screaming, at least, because an admin who doesn't recognise that boundary probably fails at other boundaries too.

Derp

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

Crossing that line is a good way to get me to run away screaming, at least, because an admin who doesn't recognise that boundary probably fails at other boundaries too.

I think it also depends on the type of game, too. What if the PC wants to, say, seduce one of the King's advisors to get information? Should we disallow that because it's an NPC? Would it not depend on the game, and the themes therein?

I think that it's murky, at best, and highly subjective, but I think that the intent here sometimes matters more than any sort of objective measure.

JinShei

@Derp said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

Crossing that line is a good way to get me to run away screaming, at least, because an admin who doesn't recognise that boundary probably fails at other boundaries too.

I think it also depends on the type of game, too. What if the PC wants to, say, seduce one of the King's advisors to get information? Should we disallow that because it's an NPC? Would it not depend on the game, and the themes therein?

I think that it's murky, at best, and highly subjective, but I think that the intent here sometimes matters more than any sort of objective measure.

Intent matters but it is very difficult to prove intent after the fact - there are people I know who might tell me their intent is to be nice and supportive but actually...

Definitely depends on the game and the theme.

L. B. Heuschkel

@Derp said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@L-B-Heuschkel

In this case, I used Mac for a specific reason:

Mac has a relationship with Harry Dresden, and will sometimes help him out if he has some information, but has to be careful about how he does so because he has Accorded Neutral Territory...

BUT he also has his own agenda, and often politics in the background, showing up with new information and actions that he's taken, which on a MU often translates to 'has to interact with PCs to get that done'. He's a mover in the world.

I'd place this one in staff PC territory -- YMMV. It's the kind of character who can be a recurring guest on the show, so to speak, and who definitely has his own agenda and motives. But as he is still, technically, an NPC, moving the plot on will always take precedence -- even if it means that you, as his staff player, sometimes need to come up with reasons why he's still there, instead of having gone out and done the thing, whatever the thing is. He's still a literary device -- just a very well fleshed out one.

L. B. Heuschkel

@Derp said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?: I think it also depends on the type of game, too. What if the PC wants to, say, seduce one of the King's advisors to get information? Should we disallow that because it's an NPC? Would it not depend on the game, and the themes therein?

It's certainly tricky. I think that if I was staff, faced with this dilemma, I'd sit the player down and have a serious talk with them about what it is they want to achieve for their character. And then... well, to be frank, make it clear to them that I am not interested in playing that out in character, but I recognise the plot value of what they're doing. If they're okay with essentially a summary of what went down, maybe with a couple of rolls, go for it.

Should tell me pretty quick whether the player is interested in the story being driven forwards (even if it's not quite as exciting a way as actually acting it out), or they just want me to write porn for them.

Pandora

My Opinion:

NPC: Has goals and agendas that further the plot and story via meaningful interactions with the players & ultimately exists to offer a glimpse into the world/powers beyond that which players see in their day-to-day roleplay.

Staff PC: Here to play a role like everyone else, with player-level abilities and goals, to tell a story about themselves entrenched in this world, again like everyone else.

You'll note that in my example of an NPC, it's perfectly possible for them to have tea, share secrets, or font-fuck any PCs without violating the Terms & Conditions.

Arkandel

As far as I'm concerned the difference between a staff and player NPC is the reason I don't staff; people act differently around staff and I don't like it.

I like running PrPs without the label (almost stigma ) of what it usually represents - some sort of official importance that makes it different from RP on the grid. What I like to run, instead, is things that resemble such RP and could in fact often have started as such, but then evolve in a pseudo-organic way into full stories.

In fact I'd be doing that in 'normal' scenes and not as an +event at all but I decided I didn't want to derail the former with my stuff by offering an opt-in instead.

When you are staff it all changes and I'm not a big fan of that.

L. B. Heuschkel

@Arkandel said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:
I like running PrPs without the label

I've always had a habit of, well, starting stuff. Personal stories, bouncing off my own characters or those around me. I am fonder of those than of big, organised plots because the latter often end up a competition to get seen and noticed, one in which particularly the quieter players end up trounced.

The good thing is, you do indeed not need a staff bit to do so, and I've never let my lack of one stop me. Nor have I any intention of asking for one again anywhere, because I really, really don't miss staff politics.