OOC Knowledge Levels Question

Three-Eyed Crow · Jul 16, 2019, 10:59 PM

A log you've recorded in the Ares scenes doesn't get deleted if it's not shared. Not to get too off on this, but it'll go into an Unshared Scenes section under your scenes and you have an option to download it for...awhile. Stays there for like 90 days+ iirc.

ETA: I guess it deletes them after months? But they stay there for...awhile.

faraday · Jul 16, 2019, 10:56 PM

@Sparks said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

And since I think a log gets deleted if not shared after a certain point, I read that sort of like "share it or lose it", or encouragement to share the scenes.

I guess it depends on your point of view. On Penn for instance, your options are a) save it to disk w/ your MU client logger, b) post it to the wiki, if the game has one, or c) lose it.

It's exactly the same in Ares, Ares just makes a) and b) easier by building those tools into the game itself. Does that encourage log-sharing? I guess kinda? If something's easier, it stands to reason that more people might do it. But it's certainly not baked in as something you're required or even expressly encouraged to do.

Ominous · Jul 17, 2019, 3:46 AM

If I ever make that MU* where all the characters are permanently on a roster and you just grab a character for the night, all of the logs will have to be public and all the secrets known. The server would have a more collaborative writing project feel than a game feel, and the players would hopefully discuss how a scene is going to go ahead of time. "Hey, this banquet scene can be where Bob reveals that he is actually Count Evilbad, the big bad for this season, and he has poisoned random dishes."

It comes down to what you want the server to achieve. If you're going for a more collaborative writing experience or a server where intrigue and secrets aren't a factor, having no private secrets and logging all scenes wouldn't be a problem. In fact, the opposite might be detrimental. If you're making Secret Hitler the MUSH, then private secrets are going to be essential.

Ninjakitten · Jul 17, 2019, 5:46 AM

@krmbm said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

You get a little reminder to download them if they're going to time-out

That's a thing I'd wondered about! Does it send you a mail or something?

Ifrit · Jul 17, 2019, 9:04 AM

@Ninjakitten it does indeed!

krmbm · Jul 17, 2019, 1:26 PM

@Ninjakitten said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

That's a thing I'd wondered about! Does it send you a mail or something?

Yep yep. It will say "Unshared Scene Deletion Warning," or something to that effect. On GH, unshared scenes will hang out for 90 days; you get the warning after 83 days, so you have a week to download it.

Thenomain · Jul 17, 2019, 5:52 PM

I have never shared a scene in my life.

Well, one, because everyone seemed excited for it to be shared.

I know that I’m probably in the minority by a lot, and it doesn’t bug me when people do, but from my context the “are you suuuuuuure you don’t want to share this scene?” is there to encourage me to participate in the social system, “your unshared log is about to die!” doubly so. This isn’t a Word document to me; it’s just some RP, I enjoyed it, I’m going to move on.

Word encourages me to save the document because it’s expected behavior when I’m writing a text document. Ares encourages me to save a scene because it’s expected behavior when RPing on Ares. It’s wrong in my case, but that’s what I get for not being the usual Musher these days.

faraday · Jul 17, 2019, 7:18 PM

@Thenomain said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

Ares encourages me to save a scene because it’s expected behavior when RPing on Ares.

Except... it isn't?

Ares encourages you to log a scene because logging enables a variety of useful features that would otherwise be unavailable to you (and everyone else in the scene) if you didn't. Such as:

Pose order.
Pose recall, if you get disconnected or arrive mid-scene or something.
The pose "undo" feature.
Allowing people to play in your scene via the web portal.
Saving the "clean" finished log to disk when the scene is over, so you don't have to rely on your MU client logger and a log cleaner.

But even so, logging is entirely optional.

Once the scene has ended, Ares does not care what you do with the log. The log is automatically kept around for a period of days to give people who want to a chance to share it before it gets deleted. Then as a courtesy, it warns people before it auto-deletes the log, in case they thought that they could just keep it around forever. This gives them a chance to save it to disk before it gets lost.

I acknowledge that there can be social pressure to post logs if everyone else is doing it, but I wish people would stop putting that onus on the game server.

Thenomain · Jul 17, 2019, 8:13 PM

@faraday said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

But even so, logging is entirely optional.

I never said it was mandatory. I said it was encouraged.

krmbm · Jul 17, 2019, 9:37 PM

@Thenomain said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

Ares encourages me to save a scene because it’s expected behavior when RPing on Ares.

Sorry, it does?

Been playing Ares pretty much every day for six months straight, and it's never encouraged me to "save" a scene. Maybe this is a semantic thing but...

It does remind me to start a scene if I haven't, for the reasons that Faraday mentions. Ares DGAF what I do with the scene from there, though. If it might get deleted, it lets me know - in case I want to save it offline, which is irrelevant if people already save logs via their client.

But saying Ares encourages you to save your logs is like saying Wikidot encourages you to save your logs.

Also, I have a bunch of unshared/unsaved logs for various reasons (TS mostly). Ares and I remain friends, despite this.

Thenomain · Jul 17, 2019, 9:46 PM

@krmbm said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

@Thenomain said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

Ares encourages me to save a scene because it’s expected behavior when RPing on Ares.

Sorry, it does?

This is a fair distinction. Then change my "save a scene" to "start a scene". That's easy enough.

krmbm · Jul 17, 2019, 10:20 PM

@Thenomain said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

This is a fair distinction. Then change my "save a scene" to "start a scene". That's easy enough.

Okay, so this still isn't Ares encouraging you to share it, which seems to be the crux of the issue?

The reminder on Ares to start a scene pops up one time, tells you that you won't have full functionality if you don't open a scene, and then you never hear from it again.

The culture on both Ares games I've played was definitely geared toward sharing logs. But that's not about Ares. That's the culture on those games - and possibly M*s at large right now.

On the last Pern game I played, we OMG SHARED all the logs - and that was using MOO and Wikidot. It was clunky and complicated and awful, and we still did it with every goddamn scene.

Because of the culture. Not the software.

Ominous · Jul 17, 2019, 10:52 PM

@krmbm Software can inform culture and culture can inform software.

Thenomain · Jul 17, 2019, 11:25 PM

@krmbm said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

Okay, so this still isn't Ares encouraging you to share it, which seems to be the crux of the issue?

There is no issue. This was a misunderstanding being drawn out into a discussion.

Even before the misunderstanding was understood, it was not an issue. It was a statement.

The reminder on Ares to start a scene pops up one time, tells you that you won't have full functionality if you don't open a scene, and then you never hear from it again.

So you're telling me that Ares says that functionality is being withheld unless you engage with a system? Because this does not sound like a neutral informative.

Again, this is not an issue, but a statement reinforcing what @Ominous just said:

Software can inform culture and culture can inform software.

I go even further on this one: The design of a door encourages or discourages certain behavior, even if that encouragement or discouragement is not intended. For example, the door with the self-locking bar on it is incorrectly used about a third of the time. (Can cite, but it would take a while.) But if something like a rubberized wrap or rectangular push-plate is put on one side of the bar, the incorrect usage drops to almost zero. Why? Design informs use, and use informs design.

This is not an issue, it's just a statement of fact.

faraday · Jul 18, 2019, 6:34 PM

@Thenomain said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

So you're telling me that Ares says that functionality is being withheld unless you engage with a system? Because this does not sound like a neutral informative.

Oh for goodness sake, it's not withholding functionality. You make it sound like a punishment. You can't do functionality like "reviewing prior poses" unless you first LOG those prior poses. Similarly you can't have the game save the log to disk for you at the end of the scene, if you don't let the game keep the log in the first place. That's just... obvious. If you enable a scene log, you enable additional functionality that is not possible without one.

Starting a scene (aka log) is completely independent and orthogonal from whether you then share that scene when it's over, which is what was originally the topic under discussion (sharing OOC information, like logs).

krmbm · Jul 17, 2019, 11:35 PM

@Thenomain said in OOC Knowledge Levels Question:

So you're telling me that Ares says that functionality is being withheld unless you engage with a system? Because this does not sound like a neutral informative.

Yes. A tiny man also jumps out and baps you on the nose if you don't use it. I'm assuming that will stop when Ares is out of beta, but you get used to it.

Ifrit · Jul 18, 2019, 1:08 PM

I mean, just for reference, the message is

%% There's no scene running here. Starting a scene will activate repose and make it easy to share the scene with the web portal. Just do scene/start if you want to start one.

Anyway, to answer the original question...

I play on both Spirit Lake, which is very OOCly transparent, and Arx, which is not. I like the way it works for both of those games. With SL, I like knowing OOCly what's going on because I feel like it fosters that collaborative environment.

On Arx, I think there's so much lore and so much of the theme is built around it and the mystery of it, I like not knowing things OOCly unless I know them ICly. I think that works very well for the IC theme.

So really.. my answer is.. it depends on the theme, and what 'feel' you want from the game.

Thenomain · Jul 18, 2019, 6:34 PM

This post is deleted!