Cyberrun

[Tinuviel]

@Ghost said in Cyberrun:

I don't have an awesome car or dont own the new Atari system. I know some people might not think that I'm cool because I'm not down with the kids and own the new Steely Dan album.

Jesus can you stop describing my youth so accurately?

[Staricide]

@Ghost Those ages are the ages of the Idents, not characters. Basically the sleeve if you want to think about it in altered-carbon terms. Profiles are Ident based, so one character could have multiple profiles for the multiple Ident/Sleeves they run around in. Idents/Sleeves absolutely can be under 18, just the character controlling them isn't, which I'm pretty sure is exactly what I said?

[Pandora]

@Admiral It's not exactly statless, since you can upgrade your weapons and augmentations. It just doesn't require complicated dice rolls or rule books, since combat is automated and you just choose whether you want to use your pulse-fist or your blaster gun or duck into cover this round and then the game outputs the results for you to emote.

[Staricide]

This is my slightly more thoughtful opinion on the game for potentially interested people.

I think CyberRun is a game that most people should try, but probably only a few people should play.

It has a lot of really unique and kind of wild code that I think almost anybody interested in mush design would benefit from playing with, even if only to figure out what they don't like or think works. So, for instance, you can edit poses after you do them, nest video or pictures into the game client or have it send you a discord message if you miss a page while offline. It also has this code that lets players design then run their own mini-games which is amazingly useful for people wanting to host events as well as really unique combat code and just a bunch of other weird and wild code stuff.

It's also pretty aggressively designed around consent and privacy and those sorts of things, so again if you're interested in consent in RP or things like that it's probably worth looking at even if just to help decide what you think doesn't work.

If you're looking for something to be your new main RP hangout though I'd probably only recommend it if you feel a bit like other games are too much like work or if you are a very character-focused writer. The game has a load of tools for creating RP, but it's all very optional. So you can do plots about raiding corpie bases and other epic stuff, but you don't get 'left behind' if you don't and won't get special emits or anything about how cool you are if you do.

For me as someone whose favorite type of RP is frequently long, deep conversations between characters not having to worry about falling behind in any way when I indulge in that is something I really like, but for others unless you're willing to step up and make plots or are hanging with people who are willing to do that I can certainly see the game feeling pretty slow.

[Ghost]

@Staricide said in Cyberrun:

@Ghost Those ages are the ages of the Idents, not characters. Basically the sleeve if you want to think about it in altered-carbon terms. Profiles are Ident based, so one character could have multiple profiles for the multiple Ident/Sleeves they run around in. Idents/Sleeves absolutely can be under 18, just the character controlling them isn't, which I'm pretty sure is exactly what I said?

Oh so I misunderstood your very clearly stated explanation the first time.

So, it's not that the character is a minor, but that the character is taking the appearance of a minor, and (using the fifteen year old appearing character as an example) specialize in "carnality" and (sic) "any freedom or vice".

That totally doesnt make it pedophilia roleplay and totally doesnt make the person getting off on it a pedo-yes it does.

Let's be real.

It doesnt matter if you bend and twist concepts like "the character is an adult but they exist as minor, so the character then isn't a minor". Clever! The end result is still the same: someone is role-playing an adult getting their kinks off on someone role-playing in the form of a minor. It's still a focused depiction of pedophilia based on sexual interaction. Which makes it potentially illegal if some court deems it doesn't pass the Miller test.

"Oh, I'm sorry your Honor, perhaps you weren't listening the first time. It isn't pedophilia. The CHARACTER is over the age of 18, they're just spending a large percentage of their time in the online environment role-playing as or engaging in sexual situations in the SHELL of someone who isn't a legal adult, thus making it totally okay then to have sex with a minor."

Don't act like this is the same thing as a 20something wearing a schoolgirl outfit or those pornstars who look 16 but are really 19. Dont act like some caveat that their mind needs to be 18 but they can shell into a FUCKING FIFTEEN YEAR OLD BODY to engage in TS makes it something that it's not.

It's still a place that is hosting TS/Kink RP with characters depicted as legal minors. It's questionably legal and it's trash. And if the players who engage in that (banging the minor-appearing characters) happen to be reading this? You are engaging in pedophilia. Pedophiles do that. That's you. You're a pedophile.

[Staricide]

...Wow

I just thought it'd be helpful to correct a miss-assumption understandably made by people who haven't played the game or talked to anyone who've played the game. I'm not saying don't hate it, I'm just saying hate it accurately.

If you think it's the worst thing ever that's cool, just maybe appreciate that other people might not? Like at least for some people having a kinkslist doesn't mean every character and RP interaction is going to be sexual, it just means that if RP becomes sexual you know what the other person does and doesn't want you to do to their butt.

And while you can hate what you hate again at least for some people there is a difference between adults in physically immature bodies and underage characters. I know I'd personally find a 20 year old with the mental age of a 13 year old a lot more disturbing than visa versa, but hey, that's me, you do you man. Just maybe can we find our way to appreciating that people can hold a view like that and not be a worshipper of Satan?

[Ghost]

@Staricide said in Cyberrun:

If you think it's the worst thing ever that's cool, just maybe appreciate that other people might not?

So I should just chill and not wrong-fun people partaking in simulated pedophilia? That online places should be safe places for adults to partake in this stuff and that there's no risk whatsoever that those people could be active, real-life pedophiles with actual access to children?

I'll be very clear. My stance here is that fucking minors is wrong. That people who do it need to be in jail. That places that enable this sort of behavior need to be burned to the ground and that there are some things, even when written as a form of entertainment, are still illegal. To provide an online outlet for it is normalizing pedophilia.

I'm not hating anybody. I'm siding with the law and find that anyone who would partake in TS with a depiction of a child is performing a horridly disgusting thing that, as a father, I am unwilling to just chill and ignore it.

I'll take my chances in losing popularity points with pedophiles. I'd hate for them to mistakenly believe that we could coexist.

[ZekeTheG33k]

@Staricide said in Cyberrun:

...Wow

I just thought it'd be helpful to correct a miss-assumption understandably made by people who haven't played the game or talked to anyone who've played the game. I'm not saying don't hate it, I'm just saying hate it accurately.

If you think it's the worst thing ever that's cool, just maybe appreciate that other people might not? Like at least for some people having a kinkslist doesn't mean every character and RP interaction is going to be sexual, it just means that if RP becomes sexual you know what the other person does and doesn't want you to do to their butt.

And while you can hate what you hate again at least for some people there is a difference between adults in physically immature bodies and underage characters. I know I'd personally find a 20 year old with the mental age of a 13 year old a lot more disturbing than visa versa, but hey, that's me, you do you man. Just maybe can we find our way to appreciating that people can hold a view like that and not be a worshipper of Satan?

There is so much wrong with this, I am not sure where to begin.

• In the eyes of the law, a 20 year old with a mental capacity of 13 might as well as be a child, regardless of their physical age.
• Just because some people might be into this, does not make it right. It should not be allowed to be perpetuated. Even on TV, there is no glorification of this mental illness.
• This type of place is a stain on the hobby. Even Shang didn't stoop to this level of blatant in your face of it. We all knew it was happening, but it was something not talked about. That's a bit easier to ignore, because it's just RP. This... Yeah.

If you support this game, you should be ashamed of yourself. I am all for freedom of speech, and that's what this technically is, but there is such a thing of moral decency and in our community, we really don't look too kindly on this. @Staricide if I were you, I'd just stop defending this place before you get a reputation that you don't want.

[Ghost]

"Age is just a number. She's so beyond her years. Is it wrong that I'm attracted to her even though she's not fully developed?"

Pretty common script for adults who advocate for dropping the age of consent to 13.

[Auspice]

@Seamus said in Cyberrun:

In the eyes of the law, a 20 year old with a mental capacity of 13 might as well as be a child, regardless of their physical age.

I think what disturbs me most is that the original comment ('I know I'd personally find a 20 year old with the mental age of a 13 year old a lot more disturbing...') implies they'd be totally OK with sex with a 13-year-old who is 'mature for their age.'

When I was 15/16, I actually pulled out my ID on three separate occasions to prove to people I wasn't 20+. I developed young, so I looked older than I was (to the extent that twice I got offered/served alcohol without question while out with my parents).

That 'maturity' and shit didn't matter when a guy who was 21 began trying to hook up with me while I was 15. The whole rest of the group came down on it.

Physical or mental: sex with someone underage is wrong.

[ZekeTheG33k]

@Auspice said in Cyberrun:

@Seamus said in Cyberrun:

In the eyes of the law, a 20 year old with a mental capacity of 13 might as well as be a child, regardless of their physical age.

I think what disturbs me most is that the original comment ('I know I'd personally find a 20 year old with the mental age of a 13 year old a lot more disturbing...') implies they'd be totally OK with sex with a 13-year-old who is 'mature for their age.'

When I was 15/16, I actually pulled out my ID on three separate occasions to prove to people I wasn't 20+. I developed young, so I looked older than I was (to the extent that twice I got offered/served alcohol without question while out with my parents).

That 'maturity' and shit didn't matter when a guy who was 21 began trying to hook up with me while I was 15. The whole rest of the group came down on it.

Physical or mental: sex with someone underage is wrong.

Oh absolutely. I mean I've been able to buy alcohol without being carded since I was 15. That doesn't really make it legal. And you're right, I didn't quite glean that from that on the first reading. I think the whole place needs to be burned down and the creator taken to be beaten soundly with the Stick of Common Decency and Sense(tm).

[Ghost]

@Seamus said in Cyberrun:

Common Decency and Sense

Dare I suggest this, but...

Common Decency and Sense to me would be the MU community binding together to take a stand against online pedophilia by reporting games where it takes place to online watchdog groups.

[Staricide]

If it's any consolation, I want to agree with you, I really do. I worry about stuff like this a lot and if there was a clear answer to what the most responsible thing was to do I would love that so much, I would advocate for every game or rp environment to change and boycott those that don't.

The problem is, say you burn down Pen Des and anything similar, what happens? Do ageplayers disappear or do they mostly just go on to to do the same RP on discord and other chat environments where they're much more likely to encounter underaged players?

And that's just one of a myriad of problems and complexities.

If there's a book or blog post or anything by some really smart person who's considered all these things and more and come to some clear idea of the most ethical behaviour then I do desperately wish someone would tell me about it.

[Ghost]

@Staricide said in Cyberrun:

Do ageplayers pedophiles disappear or do they mostly just go on to to do the same RP on discord and other chat environments where they're much more likely to encounter underaged players?

^fixed that. Rapists aren't "surprise hookup artists". Let's not flower the concept with terms like ageplayers as if it's something misunderstood.

The answer is not to allow its existence in your backyard because you don't wanna inadvertently spoil your fun time.

The answer isnt "Well might as well let the pedophiles do their thing otherwise they'll do it elsewhere!"

The answer (jesus christ, why am I typing this?) is to CLEAR OUT EVERY ENVIRONMENT POSSIBLE WHERE PEDOPHILES CAN PLY THEIR KINK AND MAKE IT CLEAR THAT IT IS WRONG AND NOT WELCOME, AND IF THEY PURSUE TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH IT THAT THEY WILL BE REPORTED TO AUTHORITIES.

Lest you knowingly allow your gamespace to be a meeting point for sex offenders, pedophiles, and the minors they are grooming.

[ZekeTheG33k]

@Ghost said in Cyberrun:

The answer (jesus christ, why am I typing this?) is to CLEAR OUT EVERY ENVIRONMENT POSSIBLE WHERE PEDOPHILES CAN PLY THEIR KINK AND MAKE IT CLEAR THAT IT IS WRONG AND NOT WELCOME, AND IF THEY PURSUE TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH IT THAT THEY WILL BE REPORTED TO AUTHORITIES.

When I ran an Anime game with underage characters... 12 and 13 year olds. It was stated quite plainly, that while we would allow the Puppy Love situations, and we used Sakura and Li from Card Captor Sakura as a perfect example of what was and was not appropriate. Anything beyond that, would be grounds for player removal. We did not tolerate the happy funtime touchy moments and had ZERO tolerance for those who wanted persue those. In fact we removed 4 players for testing my resolve with this.

[Ghost]

@Seamus said in Cyberrun:

@Ghost said in Cyberrun:

The answer (jesus christ, why am I typing this?) is to CLEAR OUT EVERY ENVIRONMENT POSSIBLE WHERE PEDOPHILES CAN PLY THEIR KINK AND MAKE IT CLEAR THAT IT IS WRONG AND NOT WELCOME, AND IF THEY PURSUE TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH IT THAT THEY WILL BE REPORTED TO AUTHORITIES.

When I ran an Anime game with underage characters... 12 and 13 year olds. It was stated quite plainly, that while we would allow the Puppy Love situations, and we used Sakura and Li from Card Captor Sakura as a perfect example of what was and was not appropriate. Anything beyond that, would be grounds for player removal. We did not tolerate the happy funtime touchy moments and had ZERO tolerance for those who wanted persue those. In fact we removed 4 players for testing my resolve with this.

Good. I think that's a very fair and safe approach

[Auspice]

I worked, for years, in moderation of children's games and forums.

There were very, very strict rules (on top of COPPA) about not sharing personal information, not sharing contact info, and no sexual roleplay. Did the forums and games probably have teenagers who were having sex IRL? Sure. (The main forum I worked on for the longest time had an average age range spanning 9-15 years old.)

But the rule was in place to prevent grooming. We had a serial user (much like our 4channer here) who would show up and tip his hand within a couple posts as to what he was out for. Did he probably do the same elsewhere? I'm sure. But we sure as fuck didn't let him linger around as soon as we identified him.

I witnessed, a depressing number of times, getting to a post or chat too late to stop kids from sharing their phone number or other RL details (including things like 'I'll be at X place on Y day, we should meet!'). I also witnessed them share adult RP sites/forums/MUs as a 'way to play without the mods catching us!' Was the one sharing the site an adult? Possibly. Probably. But these grooming behaviors are why we absolutely shut down every potential avenue we could.

[Tinuviel]

@Ghost said in Cyberrun:

Let's not flower the concept with terms like ageplayers as if it's something misunderstood.

To be clear, ageplay is a thing. Between consenting adults that are physically and mentally adults.
That's the difference.

[Jeshin]

Ageplay as a kink or sexual preference is fundamentally different to the situation in MUs with ageplayers.

Ageplay IRL is ideally between two adults wishing to do their thing the way they like. If for some reason one of them could become a 15 year old in physicality I think there'd begin to be an issue. Why does this matter? Scenes of an adult fucking a minor are fundamentally different than an adult fucking an adult dressing/behaving like a minor. You can argue they are both forms of roleplay but I'd disagree.

Also to claim there is no solution because if we don't allow it they'll just go somewhere else and do it... Good. By restricting the places that grooming or inappropriate normalization occur you keep it from becoming commonplace. Keep it to private chats or niche discord channels. Keep it off games that advertise a free for all come and play here for cyberpunk. I mean personally I view Cyberrun as a shang. There is no other reason that in its elevator pitch blurb it would so prominently discuss being able to be a minor while mentally an adult.

PS - If you look at the idents (these are bodies you can slide into) many of them discuss mental conditioning and experiencing blah blah blah. That means within setting using an ident (or sleeve alter carbon) you can take on the mental capacity or quirks of it. Which means you're no longer mentally an adult which in an underage ident?

[Pandora]

I don't mind throwing gasoline on this dumpster fire.

Where I live, the age of consent is 16, not 18. So all the arguments about 'Being attracted to anyone under the age of 18 makes you the devil' are null and void. Italy is 2 hours away and their age of consent is 14, which definitely makes me cringe but not my circus, not my monkeys.

At the end of the day, this argument would be better served from a point of view of what's better for real, actual children using the internet, not trying to punish people that don't give a damn about your country's age of consent.

Leave people who roleplay shit you don't like to it on a game that makes no pretenses about what can happen there, as opposed to them doing it secretly on family-friendly-seeming games that a parent casually looking over a real child's shoulder wouldn't realize has anything amiss going on.