What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?

[Auspice]

@Arkandel said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

My point here is that there are players - many - who don't. You don't get to fix people until they fit your system, though. No amount of explaining why this would be good for them if only will do any good past a certain point.

This.
I really, honestly, take offense to the implication that anyone not using aspirations is just sitting OOC whining about lack of RP.

I never have issue finding RP when I want it (I just want it to be productive) and I know others who don't favor aspirations don't either, like @Livia. The problem is: if I offer RP ('Hey who wants a bar brawl with a new person') and no one replies ... who is the issue there?

The implication throughout this has been that it's me. Unfortunately, I encounter far more of the 'I will only RP in <X> hangout for <X> things' people than those who are up to doing new and varied things on WoD of late. Which does stymie the ability to go out and achieve aspirations on a limited schedule.

[Derp]

@Arkandel said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

My point here is that there are players - many - who don't.

I'm not saying that people have to use them. If you refuse, then you refuse, and my options on that are limited. I'm saying that if you refuse to engage with a core mechanic of the game system, then the problem is that you aren't utilizing the rules of the game, not that something extra is being put upon you.

If places want to HR out Aspirations, cool, but it is how the game works until made otherwise. Refusal to utilize them really only hurts you, not anybody else.

You don't get to fix people until they fit your system, though. No amount of explaining why this would be good for them if only will do any good past a certain point.

I'm not trying to "fix people." I merely said that if you are using them as a passive tool, then you aren't using them to good effect, not that you are wrong and broken.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel Note that CoD as written DOES diversify XP options. You get beats for a LOT of things. It's just most of them do involve playing the game. Although 'showing up' is a way to get XP as well, and most games do include some level of auto XP. Which I understand, although I do think it exacerbates the problem of people sitting in OOC rooms gathering moss and XP until they can build their character eeeeexactly how they picture it in their head.

But, honestly, I'm totally okay with accepting that people won't engage with it. I tend to view XP and other rewards as a way (intentionally or not) of incentivising what you want to see people doing in the game. If you give people rewards for not doing anything, they're going to be incentivized to not do anything. If you give them rewards for going out and taking risks and doing stuff, you're going to get more people who go out and do stuff. Heck, even if it takes a player who would not venture out of the OOC at all in a week, and encourages them to do ONE SCENE, that's still more RP for your game. And they might have fun! And next week do another scene! And another!

Reward what you want to see, and you'll get the players that fit your game. Reward what you don't want to see, and you'll end up frustrated as players do what you rewarded them for.

[Ganymede]

@Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

If you have only 1-2 days a week you can RP and you know Bob over there, RPing daily, is hitting the XP cap every week and people are making it really obvious ('yeah you'll need like, 20 dice to be able to manage this PRP') that you NEED MORE XP......

Why the hell are you worried about Bob?

I used to be a huge advocate of flat advancement, but it was because I didn't want to fall behind XP-wise. No one likes to feel that way. But when I came to the conclusion that the disparity in XP is largely unimportant on most games, I stopped worrying about it.

XP did not help Wes get the Seneschal spot in Las Vegas. XP did not help Maddy take over a chunk of Portland's night scene. XP did not help Cai become Hierophant on RfK.

I did that.

[Pyrephox]

@Ganymede To be fair, I do understand worries about being left behind, XP-wise, because power tends to inflate quickly, which prompts plot runners to make enemies nastier and nastier, until you can, essentially, be priced out of some plots.

But I think the solution to that is capping XP gains very low, honestly.

[Derp]

@Pyrephox said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

But I think the solution to that is capping XP gains very low, honestly.

This is still one of the things that I think haunted memories got right.

MU's are a not a tabletop. Your character should not advance nearly as quickly in a persistent environment as on a tabletop. XP gains should be a slow trickle, rather than a steady stream.

MU's are built, by design, for the long game in most instances.

[Pyrephox]

@Derp And CoD doesn't gate nearly as much Cool Stuff and Neat Powers behind useless one-dot abilities, so a low XP character isn't nearly as basic as they could be in previous editions.

[Ganymede]

@Pyrephox said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

To be fair, I do understand worries about being left behind, XP-wise, because power tends to inflate quickly, which prompts plot runners to make enemies nastier and nastier, until you can, essentially, be priced out of some plots.

That's fair.

I just play outside of plots a lot. I'm not on a game just for the plots. I play for the drama, the lulz, the whatever. I'm hardly ever in plots, now that I think about it.

I realize I may be the only person.

[Auspice]

@Pyrephox said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Ganymede To be fair, I do understand worries about being left behind, XP-wise, because power tends to inflate quickly, which prompts plot runners to make enemies nastier and nastier, until you can, essentially, be priced out of some plots..

This.

Ending up in a plot and finding out you can't do anything of worth because the 'difficulty' has been scaled way too high is really unfun.

I don't mind failing rolls.
I do mind when I fail every single time.

[Arkandel]

@Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

Ending up in a plot and finding out you can't do anything of worth because the 'difficulty' has been scaled way too high is really unfun.

That's the actual problem - it's not XP, it's XP gaps. And it's a preventable problem when staff don't get in their own way about solving it.

To create a gap there need to be some generations 'missing' between dinos and newbies. Typically the way this happens is that the game launches under a set of rules which turns most players off. The ones that style is suited for stick around and accumulate XP. Anyone else who joins after is already behind and won't catch up. note most nWoD MU* simply wither away around this point.

As @Ganymede said this isn't really a blocker for advancement if a player is determined and skilled. What it is a blocker for (and the reason it's actually a problem) is cohesive storytelling - suddenly as a ST you are trying to aim your plots at two much different demographics and that's not a trivial challenge to handle, especially given how most plots use physical threats as their villains.

Dogmatically doubling down on systems that don't work is not the answer here.

[Livia]

@Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Arkandel said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

My point here is that there are players - many - who don't.

I'm not saying that people have to use them. If you refuse, then you refuse, and my options on that are limited. I'm saying that if you refuse to engage with a core mechanic of the game system, then the problem is that you aren't utilizing the rules of the game, not that something extra is being put upon you.

If places want to HR out Aspirations, cool, but it is how the game works until made otherwise. Refusal to utilize them really only hurts you, not anybody else.

I realise not using Aspirations hurts me. But I find using this core mechanic of the game system so extremely unfun.

That's it. It's not fun. To me. But not using it hurts me.

That is the whole of my problem.

[Livia]

@Ganymede said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

If you have only 1-2 days a week you can RP and you know Bob over there, RPing daily, is hitting the XP cap every week and people are making it really obvious ('yeah you'll need like, 20 dice to be able to manage this PRP') that you NEED MORE XP......

Why the hell are you worried about Bob?

I used to be a huge advocate of flat advancement, but it was because I didn't want to fall behind XP-wise. No one likes to feel that way. But when I came to the conclusion that the disparity in XP is largely unimportant on most games, I stopped worrying about it.

XP did not help Wes get the Seneschal spot in Las Vegas. XP did not help Maddy take over a chunk of Portland's night scene. XP did not help Cai become Hierophant on RfK.

I did that.

The funny thing is I'm not really worried about being behind on XP, or having less XP than other people.

Hell I came in fresh on F&L when your Wes and your Circle were in power as Jehanne and immediately started messing with what was going on, making alliances and making things difficult for the Circle, as my tiny little Jehanne (XP wise at the time at least).

The issue is I do feel bad when I'm not optimising my advancement. When not using the system hurts me.

As I said, I'm 'gamey' enough and 'competitive' enough to want to get the most I can when it comes to game systems.

But Aspirations have literally actually made me decide not to make a character when I got to the part in chargen about setting up some aspirations. I decided not to play instead.

[Derp]

@Livia said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Ganymede said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

If you have only 1-2 days a week you can RP and you know Bob over there, RPing daily, is hitting the XP cap every week and people are making it really obvious ('yeah you'll need like, 20 dice to be able to manage this PRP') that you NEED MORE XP......

Why the hell are you worried about Bob?

I used to be a huge advocate of flat advancement, but it was because I didn't want to fall behind XP-wise. No one likes to feel that way. But when I came to the conclusion that the disparity in XP is largely unimportant on most games, I stopped worrying about it.

XP did not help Wes get the Seneschal spot in Las Vegas. XP did not help Maddy take over a chunk of Portland's night scene. XP did not help Cai become Hierophant on RfK.

I did that.

The funny thing is I'm not really worried about being behind on XP, or having less XP than other people.

Hell I came in fresh on F&L when your Wes and your Circle were in power as Jehanne and immediately started messing with what was going on, making alliances and making things difficult for the Circle, as my tiny little Jehanne (XP wise at the time at least).

The issue is I do feel bad when I'm not optimising my advancement. When not using the system hurts me.

As I said, I'm 'gamey' enough and 'competitive' enough to want to get the most I can when it comes to game systems.

But Aspirations have literally actually made me decide not to make a character when I got to the part in chargen about setting up some aspirations. I decided not to play instead.

Alright. So, let's say that xp is capped at, say, five beats a week from any source. Plots, conditions, etc.

That means that you don't have to use aspirations, and you can be gamey and whatnot and still not have to worry about this one system. It just means that you have to utilize others more.

Would that be acceptable?

[Livia]

@Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Livia said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Ganymede said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

If you have only 1-2 days a week you can RP and you know Bob over there, RPing daily, is hitting the XP cap every week and people are making it really obvious ('yeah you'll need like, 20 dice to be able to manage this PRP') that you NEED MORE XP......

Why the hell are you worried about Bob?

I used to be a huge advocate of flat advancement, but it was because I didn't want to fall behind XP-wise. No one likes to feel that way. But when I came to the conclusion that the disparity in XP is largely unimportant on most games, I stopped worrying about it.

XP did not help Wes get the Seneschal spot in Las Vegas. XP did not help Maddy take over a chunk of Portland's night scene. XP did not help Cai become Hierophant on RfK.

I did that.

The funny thing is I'm not really worried about being behind on XP, or having less XP than other people.

Hell I came in fresh on F&L when your Wes and your Circle were in power as Jehanne and immediately started messing with what was going on, making alliances and making things difficult for the Circle, as my tiny little Jehanne (XP wise at the time at least).

The issue is I do feel bad when I'm not optimising my advancement. When not using the system hurts me.

As I said, I'm 'gamey' enough and 'competitive' enough to want to get the most I can when it comes to game systems.

But Aspirations have literally actually made me decide not to make a character when I got to the part in chargen about setting up some aspirations. I decided not to play instead.

Alright. So, let's say that xp is capped at, say, five beats a week from any source. Plots, conditions, etc.

That means that you don't have to use aspirations, and you can be gamey and whatnot and still not have to worry about this one system. It just means that you have to utilize others more.

Would that be acceptable?

Yeah it would be pretty swell.

[Ganymede]

@Livia said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

Hell I came in fresh on F&L when your Wes and your Circle were in power as Jehanne and immediately started messing with what was going on, making alliances and making things difficult for the Circle, as my tiny little Jehanne (XP wise at the time at least).

The conceit behind all of that was:

1. Wes was not working to enhance the Circle; he was working with his Clan to take the Circle out of power.

2. Wes struck a deal with the Invictus.

3. Wes was probably the least powerful (XP-wise) of the Circle.

4. Wes was a twerp that did things to do things because he thought it would be interested or funny.

5. Wes liked Jehanne just fine.

I do miss the twerp.

[Tinuviel]

@Ganymede said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

Wes struck a deal with the Invictus.

This is the first problem in this plan.

[Auspice]

I do feel like countering people who want to earn XP/have a place in plots with 'but you can achieve stuff socially!' is... unfair.

For one, not everyone wants to achieve social power. Yes, I claimed a Primogen spot roughly 2 weeks after joining F&L by gaining all the boons needed within roughly a 48hr timeframe. I was inspired and willing to fuck with people.

But I don't always want to do that. Sometimes I just wanna be able to dig into the metaplot and PRPs and feel effective and for that: XP is necessary.

They're two different approaches, two different ways of playing, and neither is wrong. But yes, one requires more XP than the other (and if we actually ever used social dice/rolls, you'd damn well want XP for social/political achievements- imagine if you had to roll persuasion or similar to win people to your side).

If I wanna play a vampire who is more a city guardian who fights back against the threats to the kindred, that's just as valid as someone playing a vampire who flirts and bribes their way to power.
If I wanna play a werewolf who is a master of spirits and makes fetishes, I need XP just as much as the combat monkey Rahu because STs, when I make deals with spirits, are gonna have me roll for it.

Vampire may be the easiest (if you're leaning into the political side) to get away without XP, but dependent on player and even character: it's not the only way to play. Sometimes I wanna be political. Sometimes I just wanna be the guy with the sword and Vigor 5.

[Coin]

@Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

Alright. So, let's say that xp is capped at, say, five beats a week from any source. Plots, conditions, etc.

That means that you don't have to use aspirations, and you can be gamey and whatnot and still not have to worry about this one system. It just means that you have to utilize others more.

Would that be acceptable?

This is really the only way to do it. Games that require certain types of activity to gain XP should have a LOT of different means of getting XP (e.g. Conditions, Aspirations, PRPs, SRPs, Auto XP, Votes, Reccs, RS, etc., etc.). The more? The better. Then you set a max amount of XP you can gain per x time period and then you decide how much of that max any ONE source can net you (maybe 50%).

So some people who really like to run huge social scenes that entertain a lot of people might get a lot of their XP from votes, while others who really like to have one-on-one scenes with heav y characterization might get a lot of reccs, while still others who like to game Conditions and Aspirations can do that, and still others who really like to be in all the PRPs and SRPs can get Xp from that, etc., etc.

Create systems for people to get XP from a BUNCH of different ways so that they don't feel overly tethered to a single system, and then limit how much they can get from any one.

[Derp]

@Coin said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

This is really the only way to do it. Games that require certain types of activity to gain XP should have a LOT of different means of getting XP (e.g. Conditions, Aspirations, PRPs, SRPs, Auto XP, Votes, Reccs, RS, etc., etc.). The more? The better. Then you set a max amount of XP you can gain per x time period and then you decide how much of that max any ONE source can net you (maybe 50%).
So some people who really like to run huge social scenes that entertain a lot of people might get a lot of their XP from votes, while others who really like to have one-on-one scenes with heav y characterization might get a lot of reccs, while still others who like to game Conditions and Aspirations can do that, and still others who really like to be in all the PRPs and SRPs can get Xp from that, etc., etc.
Create systems for people to get XP from a BUNCH of different ways so that they don't feel overly tethered to a single system, and then limit how much they can get from any one.

FWIW, I don't disagree with you. My point was mainly for Livia, re: the game-ness and optimization stuff. In a game with unlimited xp, sure. They aren't fun for her and she doesn't want to do them. She doesn't have to, and in a capped system, she isn't losing out.

In an uncapped system -- I dunno, man. You either use them or you don't? shrug But I've yet to see a game that doesn't put some kind of weekly cap on it, given how ludicrously easy it would be to become an overnight god.

[Auspice]

@Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Coin said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

This is really the only way to do it. Games that require certain types of activity to gain XP should have a LOT of different means of getting XP (e.g. Conditions, Aspirations, PRPs, SRPs, Auto XP, Votes, Reccs, RS, etc., etc.). The more? The better. Then you set a max amount of XP you can gain per x time period and then you decide how much of that max any ONE source can net you (maybe 50%).
So some people who really like to run huge social scenes that entertain a lot of people might get a lot of their XP from votes, while others who really like to have one-on-one scenes with heav y characterization might get a lot of reccs, while still others who like to game Conditions and Aspirations can do that, and still others who really like to be in all the PRPs and SRPs can get Xp from that, etc., etc.
Create systems for people to get XP from a BUNCH of different ways so that they don't feel overly tethered to a single system, and then limit how much they can get from any one.

FWIW, I don't disagree with you. My point was mainly for Livia, re: the game-ness and optimization stuff. In a game with unlimited xp, sure. They aren't fun for her and she doesn't want to do them. She doesn't have to, and in a capped system, she isn't losing out.

In an uncapped system -- I dunno, man. You either use them or you don't? shrug But I've yet to see a game that doesn't put some kind of weekly cap on it, given how ludicrously easy it would be to become an overnight god.

Many games right now largely offer aspirations and plots as your way to earn XP.

That's it.

And if you're in a timezone like @Livia, you don't really get to be in plots. Which means being left with just one single way to earn.