What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?

[Derp]

@Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

Many games right now largely offer aspirations and plots as your way to earn XP.
That's it.
And if you're in a timezone like @Livia, you don't really get to be in plots. Which means being left with just one single way to earn.

Let me preface this by saying -- I have nothing but for @Livia. She was literally one of the very first people I played with when I started this hobby in ye olden days, and I have many fond memories. This is not me trying to pick on her at all.

But I don't really know what people want here.

"You have option A, B, C."

Your timezone doesn't work very well for C, which is unfortunate, but leaves you with A and B.

If you don't like B, and don't wanna do B, then that's fine, but that only leaves you with option A.

That's still a choice you make, and you still have options -- you just don't like one of the options. That means that everything you do has to be in the one thing that you can a) reasonably use and b) choose to engage in.

There isn't anything wrong with that, but choosing to not engage in a game system doesn't mean that the system is broken. It just means you have more work to do in the one area.

What else do people want? There are only so many options you can put out there before it just kind of seems like too much, too easy, you know? Even if it works better for one player, it might not work better for the game, and we all know that players are very good maximizers.

[Auspice]

@Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

"You have option A, B, C."
Your timezone doesn't work very well for C, which is unfortunate, but leaves you with A and B.
If you don't like B, and don't wanna do B, then that's fine, but that only leaves you with option A.

Except the point being made here is that in many cases there is only Options A and B.

What @Coin pointed out is there needs to be more than just A and B.

(Conditions are most often earned via plot, so while they exist as an option... they're less of an option for someone who isn't able to be in PRPs.)

[Derp]

@Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

(Conditions are most often earned via plot, so while they exist as an option... they're less of an option for someone who isn't able to be in PRPs.)

They aren't just from plots. I absolutely contest that, as someone who resolves them via jobs regularly.

I don't think they have much meaning outside of plots unless players actually use their upsides and downsides, but they are absolutely a thing.

But my point still stands. Options should not be so numerous that they become trivial, either.

[Coin]

@Derp said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Coin said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

This is really the only way to do it. Games that require certain types of activity to gain XP should have a LOT of different means of getting XP (e.g. Conditions, Aspirations, PRPs, SRPs, Auto XP, Votes, Reccs, RS, etc., etc.). The more? The better. Then you set a max amount of XP you can gain per x time period and then you decide how much of that max any ONE source can net you (maybe 50%).
So some people who really like to run huge social scenes that entertain a lot of people might get a lot of their XP from votes, while others who really like to have one-on-one scenes with heav y characterization might get a lot of reccs, while still others who like to game Conditions and Aspirations can do that, and still others who really like to be in all the PRPs and SRPs can get Xp from that, etc., etc.
Create systems for people to get XP from a BUNCH of different ways so that they don't feel overly tethered to a single system, and then limit how much they can get from any one.

FWIW, I don't disagree with you. My point was mainly for Livia, re: the game-ness and optimization stuff. In a game with unlimited xp, sure. They aren't fun for her and she doesn't want to do them. She doesn't have to, and in a capped system, she isn't losing out.

In an uncapped system -- I dunno, man. You either use them or you don't? shrug But I've yet to see a game that doesn't put some kind of weekly cap on it, given how ludicrously easy it would be to become an overnight god.

I hate "x time frame" because it does things like "I already hit my cap so I am going to wait to process this 'til next week" or "why bother doing this before the week rolls over since I won't get XP for it", etc.

My preferred solutions for this is to set a game-wide cap on how much XP anyone can have earned, period, that goes up on a daily basis. So, for example, at game start, no one can have more than 10 XP (earned, total) because that's what you get at chargen. Perfect.

That max goes up by, say, 1 beat per day (so 1 XP every five days). So on day fifty of the game, you can have a max of 20 XP earned. On day ninety (three months in) you can have 28 total earned, etc.

There's no cap to how much you can earn in a week, or a day, or a month; you just stop earning when you hit the limit (and that limit goes up daily, so you can always earn at least 1 beat per day (which is pretty decent, pace-wise).

What does this do? Several things:

1. It provides people who RP constantly, every day, with a small measure of XP rewards, without letting them go ballistic and soar past other people uncontrollably;
2. It allows people who chargenned months after someone else to be able to catch up, since there isn't a limit on how much XP they can earn in any one arbitrary period of time;
3. It allows people to play the way a lot of people like to (or can): in bursts (e.g. maybe I have a job, or obligations, or depression, or whatever, that means I have heavy activity for a month or two, and am very passive and inactive for a month or two; this would let me catch up when I am active without penalizing me for having a life, obligations, or whatever that keep me away from the game).
4. It gives staff an easy tool for controlling the speed of XP character growth. If you notice that after three months, 1 beat per day is too much (or too little) you can just adjust up or down from that point forward, without screwing anyone over because it affects the entire player base exactly the same.

[Auspice]

@Coin said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

It allows people who chargenned months after someone else to be able to catch up, since there isn't a limit on how much XP they can earn in any one arbitrary period of time;
It allows people to play the way a lot of people like to (or can): in bursts (e.g. maybe I have a job, or obligations, or depression, or whatever, that means I have heavy activity for a month or two, and am very passive and inactive for a month or two; this would let me catch up when I am active without penalizing me for having a life, obligations, or whatever that keep me away from the game).

I like this a lot. We've all been in the former (apped in later on and feel like we're constantly lagging behind) and I'm frequently the latter (be it RL or depression or...).

When I'm involved, I'm involved. I've got plots I wanna run on NOLA, but I can't right now because of how busy RL is. And maybe that's why the refrain of 'well you have to do things to earn XP' is kind of shitty. I'm around. I'm on. I just can't really RP more than once a week right now.

What's my incentive to pour the time an effort, when I do have it, into a game? I'd be more inclined to put it into a game that supports people regardless as opposed to one that's gonna sneer at me anytime I'm not heavily active.

[Coin]

@Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Coin said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

It allows people who chargenned months after someone else to be able to catch up, since there isn't a limit on how much XP they can earn in any one arbitrary period of time;
It allows people to play the way a lot of people like to (or can): in bursts (e.g. maybe I have a job, or obligations, or depression, or whatever, that means I have heavy activity for a month or two, and am very passive and inactive for a month or two; this would let me catch up when I am active without penalizing me for having a life, obligations, or whatever that keep me away from the game).

I like this a lot. We've all been in the former (apped in later on and feel like we're constantly lagging behind) and I'm frequently the latter (be it RL or depression or...).

When I'm involved, I'm involved. I've got plots I wanna run on NOLA, but I can't right now because of how busy RL is. And maybe that's why the refrain of 'well you have to do things to earn XP' is kind of shitty. I'm around. I'm on. I just can't really RP more than once a week right now.

What's my incentive to pour the time an effort, when I do have it, into a game? I'd be more inclined to put it into a game that supports people regardless as opposed to one that's gonna sneer at me anytime I'm not heavily active.

Exactly. The MU version of "don't criticize people for doing what you asked them to do".

[Jennkryst]

So I will preface this with no XP system being perfect, you just have pick which flaws you are cool with having, yadda yadda.

@Coin said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

My preferred solutions for this is to set a game-wide cap on how much XP anyone can have earned, period, that goes up on a daily basis. So, for example, at game start, no one can have more than 10 XP (earned, total) because that's what you get at chargen. Perfect.

To play devil's advocate here, the issues here is the same as other activity-based XP gains - so if someone has issue with 'Bobbert can RP all day, every day, and earn tons more RP than Jimmes, who can only RP once a week'. It does give Bobbert a point where the gains stop, instead of letting that train keep on running away. But at the end of the day, two players who are approved the same day might end up with different XP totals, based on who can spam more RP.

Like I said, not necessarily a bad thing, but the folks who take issue with the one may show up and take issue with the other.

[Coin]

@Jennkryst said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

So I will preface this with no XP system being perfect, you just have pick which flaws you are cool with having, yadda yadda.

@Coin said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

My preferred solutions for this is to set a game-wide cap on how much XP anyone can have earned, period, that goes up on a daily basis. So, for example, at game start, no one can have more than 10 XP (earned, total) because that's what you get at chargen. Perfect.

To play devil's advocate here, the issues here is the same as other activity-based XP gains - so if someone has issue with 'Bobbert can RP all day, every day, and earn tons more RP than Jimmes, who can only RP once a week'. It does give Bobbert a point where the gains stop, instead of letting that train keep on running away. But at the end of the day, two players who are approved the same day might end up with different XP totals, based on who can spam more RP.

Like I said, not necessarily a bad thing, but the folks who take issue with the one may show up and take issue with the other.

At some point, people need to accept that to actually progress in RP, you have to RP. The only alternative is to make a flat XP gain for everyone with no other way of gaining XP--just that flat weekly (or whatever) amount. There's no other solution for that complaint, and that solution brings with it the (very understandable) "I've been roleplaying my ass off and see no different and advancement than this dude who logs on once a week to complain about his RL in the OOC room for an hour before logging off because 'nothing is happening'".

I think my solution at least gives people motivation to RP, whereas the other gives them... what? Nothing. The ability to sit around and be superpowerful because they managed not to idle out.

[Auspice]

There will always be people who pull ahead, but when they pull ahead because you provide just one or two options that are 'gated' (esp. PRP XP!)... you end up only benefiting them.

If you provide multiple avenues to obtain XP, people might be more willing to RP and they'll also feel more empowered during those times they can spend more time RPing.

[Ganymede]

@Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

I'd be more inclined to put it into a game that supports people regardless as opposed to one that's gonna sneer at me anytime I'm not heavily active.

You get used to it after a while.

I have long-petitioned for flat XP-gain games. Dark Water was once such game. I also have played on games which have slow-advancement times. BSG:U is one such place.

I have to admit that the places which provide an incentive for engaging in RP seem more busy. Yet I get a lot of mileage out of games like Fate's Harvest and Marsilikos.

I think it just depends on expectations, as I said before. My expectations have changed over time. I may never be at the top of the food chain power-wise based on my activity, but I'm hardly ever short on RP partners when I'm looking for them.

[Auspice]

@Ganymede said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

I have long-petitioned for flat XP-gain games. Dark Water was once such game. I also have played on games which have slow-advancement times. BSG:U is one such place.

This is one of the reasons I so heavily promote FS3. It's flat gain, but it's a slow build and requires focus. You can't just max out everything and you're encouraged to specialize. There's also a cap on how much XP you can have at a given time, so people who aren't logging in, aren't engaging, might find they 'lose out' a bit.

I did on BSU when I was in the thick of school/migraines and not logging in/RPing for a couple months. But it didn't prevent me from eventually reaching Legendary in Firearms.

[Jennkryst]

@Coin Yeah. It's why I said nothing is perfect and devil's advocate and all that jazz. The good part here is that a dedicated new player can catch up to a week 1 dinosaur.

[Auspice]

@Jennkryst said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Coin Yeah. It's why I said nothing is perfect and devil's advocate and all that jazz. The good part here is that a dedicated new player can catch up to a week 1 dinosaur.

And otherwise, you almost never can. Even if a game has 'XP slowdown' vs a cap, a newbie is still gonna be churning away for months upon months upon- likely never pulling it off.

[Coin]

@Jennkryst said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Coin Yeah. It's why I said nothing is perfect and devil's advocate and all that jazz. The good part here is that a dedicated new player can catch up to a week 1 dinosaur.

@Auspice said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Jennkryst said in What game system would you prefer for a big-tent nWoD project?:

@Coin Yeah. It's why I said nothing is perfect and devil's advocate and all that jazz. The good part here is that a dedicated new player can catch up to a week 1 dinosaur.

And otherwise, you almost never can. Even if a game has 'XP slowdown' vs a cap, a newbie is still gonna be churning away for months upon months upon- likely never pulling it off.

I would go so far as to suggest that the system works best if the "Auto XP" is regulated depending on how far away you are from the maximum.

Let's say when you chargen the maximum is 100 XP. Grand. You are 90 XP away, which is over 50. Maybe everyone who is over 50 XP away from the max gets 3 Auto Beats per week (or whatever). When they are between 30-49 XP away, they gain 2 Auto Beats per weeks (or whatever). And then when they are between 0-29 XP away, it drops to 1 Auto beat per week (or whatever).

This is similar to what happened on The Reach (which gave you more auto Xp per week the further away you were from the highest XP on the game). This would help newbies catch up faster but also not have them do so at a rate that's just ridiculous.

There's a ton of ways you can tweak my suggestion to cater to the usual complaints without bending over backwards for them.