Where are the liege houses losing? Can they not also take steps to.grow their own domains? Can they not regain the income? They aren't being punished. Nobody is taking something away that they earned and worked hard for. Somebody else earned enough pretend money to go off on their own. Earn your own pretend money. 1000 economic resources buys a point of income domain stat. Invest the taxes you are getting into your income. Do something proactive.
@Sunny They lose income and prestige, as I understand it. I know they certainly lose income.
But I think my point is being lost:
If the game is going to, and @Apos wants the game to, move in a direction that sees these elevations + loss for the liege houses and we DON'T want to play out political consequences or whatever in a way that stomps people's fun as they build their houses, we also need to address that liege houses -- whatever liege house -- suffers a loss because of it.
@Sunny said in Arx's Elevation Situation:
Where are the liege houses losing? Can they not also take steps to.grow their own domains? Can they not regain the income? They aren't being punished. Nobody is taking something away that they earned and worked hard for. Somebody else earned enough pretend money to go off on their own. Earn your own pretend money.
The fact that you say 'regain' their income suggests that you do realize that a Great House that loses a duchy does, in fact, lose a significant portion of its income. Great Houses, in some ways, get hit harder by this than many others, because they have a severely limited number of duchies to work with, and only receive taxes from the duchies and any direct vassals they might have lower on the chain (like De Lire).
One could just as easily say why is pretend land and an imaginary title in a make-believe world so important to anyone? Why don't they just spend their imaginary money on building lots of imaginary statues and houses and not growing their pretend House? It's all equally nonproductive.
@wahoo said in Arx's Elevation Situation:
@Sunny the problem comes with the liege houses losing because they didn’t crash all over someone. And that seems like poor game design— you don’t want to punish for that.
If theme becomes: and you’re ALL duchies! You know. Whatever. Little weird, but ok.
Why was this not a problem until it’s ONE great house taking the L? (The terminology of losing was introduced by @Wahoo not me.)
Like 4 or 5 houses got elevated last AoP and it was all “clap clap applause clap woohoo!”
People lost income then, too. It just wasn’t your great house.
@Tempest said in Arx's Elevation Situation:
@wahoo said in Arx's Elevation Situation:
@Sunny the problem comes with the liege houses losing because they didn’t crash all over someone. And that seems like poor game design— you don’t want to punish for that.
If theme becomes: and you’re ALL duchies! You know. Whatever. Little weird, but ok.
Why was this not a problem until it’s ONE great house taking the L? (The terminology of losing was introduced by @Wahoo not me.)
Like 4 or 5 houses got elevated last AoP and it was all “clap clap applause clap woohoo!”
People lost income then, too. It just wasn’t your great house.
Maybe because those houses involved PCs in the effort. They talked to their lieges. They talked to the Faith. They didn't just '@action give this to us'
Which has been the entire complaint the whole time.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@Auspice said in Arx's Elevation Situation:
@Tempest said in Arx's Elevation Situation:
@wahoo said in Arx's Elevation Situation:
@Sunny the problem comes with the liege houses losing because they didn’t crash all over someone. And that seems like poor game design— you don’t want to punish for that.
If theme becomes: and you’re ALL duchies! You know. Whatever. Little weird, but ok.
Why was this not a problem until it’s ONE great house taking the L? (The terminology of losing was introduced by @Wahoo not me.)
Like 4 or 5 houses got elevated last AoP and it was all “clap clap applause clap woohoo!”
People lost income then, too. It just wasn’t your great house.
Maybe because those houses involved PCs in the effort. They talked to their lieges. They talked to the Faith. They didn't just '@action give this to us'
Which has been the entire complaint the whole time.
I didn’t see that addressed anywhere in this thread by the OP, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
It isn't a significant portion of their income. Pravus, when I had it, was paying an amount in taxes that I made up within 1 or 2 dots of income. Which is, all told, 2000 resources. This is in no way significant to the great houses.
If everyone is a Great House, no one is.
More seriously, some of us would have liked to play in a barony, once upon a time. Poor crummy noble house sounds like fun. The roof on the castle is leaking and your horses are kind of sad looking. It's a different experience, and that's the whole point. Everyone doesn't want the same things.
But then, I never could get into the coded resources game part of the game, and I often felt my character was too rich, too fast. I liked it better when I had my 500 per week or so and had to save up for stuff. I did enjoy having fancy diamondplate swords, of course! But, really, I didn't enjoy getting them nearly as much as when my character was first able to afford a really nice high quality steel weapon, or a silk velvet doublet, or something like that.
I have raised this issue several times via @request BEFORE this current elevation question so this really isn't all about Pravus.
I know we all have Pravus on our brains but I'd like to keep this discussion constructive -- hence its place in the boards, away from the other Arx threads -- and it doesn't need to focus on that one house.
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I make things via patronage.
The Long Dig
I bring it up only because I know what that bank used to look like, and it is problematic to try and say Velenosa is going to feel a significant impact from losing their taxes. Unless Velenosa is way, way worse off than it used to be.
I think finding other constructive ways to "grow" your house that aren't just about making it physically bigger would be great, and I suspect that the dominion systems are going to be involved in it. I just don't know that there is a great solution for this while we continue to be on action break, pre-dominion system, with everyone and their dog grinding resources times a million.
My big worry with this is as someone who does not want players d ok wn the road not get to do this sort of rp for their houses, because that would suck. 'Sorry guys, we decided there was a limit on that kind of fun and we used it all up.'
@Sunny said in Arx's Elevation Situation:
I bring it up only because I know what that bank used to look like, and it is problematic to try and say Velenosa is going to feel a significant impact from losing their taxes. Unless Velenosa is way, way worse off than it used to be.
It is.
I feel like @wahoo would be better served with a constructive thread asking how to grow her own house, rather than asking how to stop other people from doing it.
By its very nature, this topic feels less than constructive.
@Sunny Ah, my comment wasn't aimed solely at you -- I just don't want this to derail into OMG VELENOSA PRAVUS because truly, that's not what this is about. It's about how to style a game so no one feels like rugs are pulled out from under them one way or another.
ETA: I don't necessarily think that's the right solution either. But there has to be a way to play the game where liege houses aren't knuckle rapped AND ambitious lower houses aren't told "stay in your lane THE END" all the time.
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I make things via patronage.
The Long Dig
I think that isn't fair. Staff on Arx has said they are on it. There is a system coming, AND an IC reason for it. So.
@Sunny What isn't fair?
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I make things via patronage.
The Long Dig
Asking how to style someone else's game, when they have said they have a plan and a solution already being worked on.
@Sunny I take your point!
@Tempest said in Arx's Elevation Situation:
@Sunny said in Arx's Elevation Situation:
I bring it up only because I know what that bank used to look like, and it is problematic to try and say Velenosa is going to feel a significant impact from losing their taxes. Unless Velenosa is way, way worse off than it used to be.
It is.
I feel like @wahoo would be better served with a constructive thread asking how to grow her own house, rather than asking how to stop other people from doing it.
By its very nature, this topic feels less than constructive.
Which is, unfortunately, how things often seem to pan out. The high tier materials becoming illegal, prohibitively expensive, etc., may have plot reasons but it also feels like a 'a lot of PCs have these and we want them to feel special still while slowing down gain so the rest of you are being punished for not getting your gear fast enough'
Which is exactly how a 'We don't want anyone else to be raised without the perfect storm of reasons so we're stopping all elevations' would feel. Like being told: 'sorry you took your time, too bad, so sad, rush to the finish line in the future.'
I think, also, it's silly to put forth 'find other ways to grow' while also being like 'Liege houses shouldn't suffer a loss!' ........doesn't that just give them something to work towards? You can't tell House A 'find things to work towards and put effort into so that House B doesn't have to'
I do think it's reasonable to try and figure out what to do about the situation as it currently exists, since staff is not in a great position to be able to implement their systems while constantly buried in an action queue that never ends. I know there's lots of people who are sitting poised with their fingers over the enter key on a new action for as soon as the action freeze is off, too.
I just dunno what that would be.
Where are the liege houses losing? Can they not also take steps to.grow their own domains? Can they not regain the income? They aren't being punished. Nobody is taking something away that they earned and worked hard for. Somebody else earned enough pretend money to go off on their own. Earn your own pretend money. 1000 economic resources buys a point of income domain stat. Invest the taxes you are getting into your income. Do something proactive.
