Dec 15, 2020, 12:01 AM
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Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?
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@carma said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:
My only request is please no commands with + @ / = in them.
Arx fries my brain with its indecipherable syntax. Simple tasks become monumental chores because of code-like structure.
For unread stuff, what would be great is just one four-letter command:
NEXT
Show me the next unread thing.
Also let me specify which next unread thing I want to read.
NEXT JOURNAL
NEXT MESSAGE
NEXT INFORM
NEXT BOARD
downvote.
I mean forgetting that most things on Arx can be done without a + or @ and those are there for those of us who are habitual with them...
Typing 'NEXT BOARD' (with the implication you want all-caps for those) is much more of a hassle than bbnew or @mail #.
Also: it's cyberpunk.
Code is kind of... a thing.The idea of stripping out the like, cyber aspect of cyberpunk makes me balk. I hate everything about this.
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@carma said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:
@auspice I typed it in allcaps to show it's a command. I'm not vying for required allcaps. My suggestion is case insensitive.
And yes, it is difficult for me to remember all the different syntax for all the different types of messages.
Also, are you saying you want to make the UI/UX difficult because that's on theme for cyberpunk? I'll downvote that.
Arx is also not a good thing to base 'what is a MUSH' on.
Most games don't have bboard + inform + mail + messengers.
Most games have only 2, MAYBE 3 of those.But you're basically saying 'instead of quick and easy ways to access these, I want people to remember the full name and have to type out full, lengthy commands'
I mean how would I access a specific message?
'LIST ALL BOARDS'
'LIST ALL POSTS ON ANNOUNCEMENTS BOARD'
'OPEN POST 8 ON ANNOUNCEMENTS BOARD'
?+bbread
+bbread 1
+bbread 1/8One of those is hell on people who have dyslexia and a pain to type out (and gets into 'how the fuck do I remember the context for this shit again?') and the other just requires... learning a command.
ETA: or would it be 'list all messages on announcements board' or 'open message 8 on announcements board'? Like, this is just a different type of syntax that's much more involved/lengthy to remember. And again, a bit bad for people who struggle with dyslexia, spelling, or ESL.
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@carma said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:
My only request is please no commands with + @ / = in them.
The syntax is built in to the codebase. The chances of you convincing someone to go through the Herculean and enormously tedious task of stripping all of that out just because you're personally unfamiliar with it are basically nil.
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@carma said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:
With Arx, I have a big doc I refer to every time I have to type to do things. The commands are tedious to type and unintuitive to me. The help files are cryptic, and it just feels like a mess to me.
Again, Arx is not a good standard to judge all MUing by. It's its own unique beast. Because of the sheer number of systems it has (most MUs have much, much less), it has a ton of commands. And they've acknowledged their documentation isn't great.
Like @Wizz said: a lot of that stuff is hardcoded in.
The @ and + traditionally was to differentiate between soft and hard code. That's not as hard and fast a rule anymore, but it's why it existed in the first place.
You may have an easier time on an Ares game. Faraday has provided a 'qr' (short for quick reference) command. 'qr <whatever>' will bring up whatever matches your input. Can't quite remember the mail commands? 'qr mai' (not even the full word!) works.
I get that Arx is confusing. I have a hard time with it too, sometimes, and have to reference the commands list on the website. But it is not what all MUs are.
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@carma said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:
Have it call up a board menu where I can choose like...
MUSH commands certainly have a learning curve, which can be daunting for new players. I think web interfaces with intuitive buttons/prompts are the future.
However, when talking about command-line interfaces, menu-driven systems like the one you're describing aren't really considered among the best practices.
A menu-driven system is cumbersome (requiring multiple prompts for every activity), inflexible (you can't switch to doing thing B until you're done with the prompts from thing A), and confusing (you have to remember what step you were on to give the next prompt).
In contrast, it might take you some time to get comfortable with the fact that the mail syntax is
mail person=subject/message, but once you do, it's a much more efficient. And you can easily switch gears between reading a forum post and talking on a channel without having to remember which command menu you're in.If we were starting from scratch, an "ideal" MU command-line interface would probably look more like common script CLIs with named parameters:
mail send --subject Test --to Harvey --body This is a thingBut we're not starting from scratch; we're dealing with a user base that's been typing
+mail person=subject/messagefor thirty years. So that's an important consideration. -
@faraday said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:
MUSH commands certainly have a learning curve, which can be daunting for new players.
You also bring up "inertia" in the hobby, and that's also an issue. I no longer feel awkward typing "bbread <board number>/u" to look at all of the unread posts on <board number>, but I can understand if others do.
Like everything, there's a bit of a learning curve and reward if you take some time to walk it.
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I don't think 'best practices for a command line interface' has much to do with target demographics. @faraday provided a pretty good explanation as to best practices on interfaces that are as much (if not more) of a consideration than the target audience. Yes, target audience is a factor, but it is not the only factor.
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@carma said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:
Like I'm on a Moto G6 and here are the steps just to get through one command...
That's basically your entire problem in a nutshell. As much as it sucks for some people who don't have any other means to access them, MU*s were never designed to be played via modern smart phones.
The syntax takes some getting used to on a computer and keyboard, but it's much more efficient for that configuration, which is the standard. You're arguing about efficiency like playing on smartphones is the norm and it just isn't.
But you're right, this subject really does deserve it's own thread rather than hijacking this one.
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@Carma Not really interested in debating it. There are plenty of articles on best practices in command-line interface development if you care to read more about it. Also, yes, this is off-topic but the mods are always free to migrate the posts to a different thread if they care to.
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I think the topic is very unironic on a thread regarding the forum’s interest in a dystopian game.
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I'm a creature of habit, so using + as a prefix to instructions intended to invoke game commands is just the syntax I've chosen. +chargen, +roll, +sheet, etc., etc.
...which I find myself chuckling about, rereading the above, given I haven't actually played on a MUSH in 10+ years. But hey, let's go with them being formative years.
Look on the bright side -- by being explicit that you want to interact w/ the system to execute some code on your behalf with a plus sign, you won't accidentally kick off a command when your pose inadvertently starts with a command keyword when you forgot to use 'emit/pose'.
As far as progress -- haven't done much with it since Thanksgiving. Looking to knock some more of this out over the Holidays.
Then have to decide if I host this somewhere and attempt to collaborate with a crew on running a game, or just release this code into the wild to exhibit a life of its own.
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@reason said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:
Then have to decide if I host this somewhere and attempt to collaborate with a crew on running a game, or just release this code into the wild to exhibit a life of its own.
Which to be clear doesn't actually have to be an either/or, and could in fact be both -- there's something appealingly true to the subject material to release code into the wild to take on a life of its own.
-re: 50n
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Okay. Finished +sheet schema tonight, need to code a view up to it w/ a +sheet command, then finish CG and wire it up to build out finished +sheets, and wire up the +roll commands so you can roll skills vs. just dice.
Will see how much progress can be made between now and the new year.
Might be close enough to put a post in the Advertisements board.
-r