The Desired Experience

[Devrex]

@faraday Agreed.

Of course, I'd also tell staffers, hey, don't craft plots that depend on any character type. Make a fire ant hill, drop it in player's back yard, and make it actionable by anyone who thinks to do something about it.

Like who cares if the person who turns the hose on the ant hill is working XYZ fictional job? There are probably some jobs that are helpful for handling certain types of problems but it doesn't really matter. What matters is they have the will, heart, and willingness to pay attention and use the tools to get something done.

This does not negate my shopkeeper comment of earlier.

Because what happens there is this...I'd run the Dungeon of Doom for the shopkeeper if they send in a +request saying well I'm grabbing my spelunking gear and going, but they usually wait for the Dungeon Delver characters to invite them along to said dungeon, and no responsible Dungeon Delver would do that. You, the staffer, cannot force Dungeon Delver to make this super irresponsible and stupid decision that goes 100% against who their character is which is: bringing Shop Bob the Noncombatant to The Dangerous Place.

And you can even say "Well maybe Shop Bob goes of his own volition and just runs into them?" and that's not what (in my experience) Shop Bob wants either. In my experience what is wanted is to feel wanted and staff...can't...do...that.

All staffers can do is: provide opportunities for story-based RP, provide frameworks using best practices that allow people to grow their own RP when the staff-RP on offer does not suit, adjudicate the rules when necessary, and answer +requests in a timely and fair fashion when players make use of the tools.

This discussion has gotten far afield of my original question but...I think it's just important for players to realize that even the best, most dedicated, fairest staffer in the world cannot provide folks with a tabletop experience on a public MUSH. A private game where they've hand-selected and invited their playerbase, chosen how many they're going to try to serve, yeah okay, you can get close and maintain all the nifty character development advantages that tabletop can't always offer. But a public game? It's just not possible. What is provide-able is a MUSHing experience, and on a MUSHing experience it's really important for players to meet staff halfway.

[Ganymede]

@derp said in The Desired Experience:

So, no. This is not on staff, even if they point you toward that role. They cannot make RP for you, they cannot predict whether you will play the role in a compelling way, and they cannot force people to play together who don't want to play together.

I concur.

I recently applied for a character role that was needed. I love the character. I have a point to exist, and I know that staff has been encouraging interaction with my PC and other players' PCs. But it simply has not worked out, schedule-wise, and I have not met everyone I probably need to in order to kick-off the plot that staff has planned.

But that's not staff's fault.

[reversed]

@ganymede said in The Desired Experience:

@derp said in The Desired Experience:

So, no. This is not on staff, even if they point you toward that role. They cannot make RP for you, they cannot predict whether you will play the role in a compelling way, and they cannot force people to play together who don't want to play together.

I concur.

I recently applied for a character role that was needed. I love the character. I have a point to exist, and I know that staff has been encouraging interaction with my PC and other players' PCs. But it simply has not worked out, schedule-wise, and I have not met everyone I probably need to in order to kick-off the plot that staff has planned.

But that's not staff's fault.

[il-volpe]

@devrex said in The Desired Experience:

In my experience what is wanted is to feel wanted

This.

[Ominous]

@warma-sheen said in The Desired Experience:

Those are good board games, I'm sure. I've only played two, and not very often. But the experience of a MU* is vastly different than that of a boardgame. Boardgames discount internal politics completely, as well as cross-factional politics, which provide huge amounts of intrigue and excitement in RP.

I have yet to play a MU* with interesting politics to be frank. Most MU* players overestimate their intrigue chops. Anyone who has played a two-day game of Diplomacy has experienced more politicking and backstabbing than a MU* player does in a decade. Hell, Eve Online has more intrigue and politicking than any MU*. An assassin infiltrated a guild and worked their way up to being the best friend and second-in-command of the targeted head of the guild over the course of ten months.

Those are just some of the many vast differences that make MUs far more interesting than simple boardgames - which is why MUs last for years and board games last minutes. A three year long boardgame of any of those would get boring quickly and turn to torture shortly thereafter.

King's Dilemma and Oath. Oath never ends, as the end of the last game of it that you played sets up the next game with the victors controlling the new empire that overthrew the old empire in the last game. King's Dilemma is the only legacy board game that has gotten me to finally play a legacy board game and takes about a year to play.

What you look for in a MU* and what you look for in a board game are usually very, very different.

Not really. As I stated earlier in this very thread, I'm looking for essentially an online, text-based Mega Game with a bit more fluff and roleplay. I'm about to throw in the towel on MUSHes altogether and focus solely on RPIs, but they go the opposite end and have too much grinding with little roleplay.

[Arkandel]

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

@devrex said in The Desired Experience:

In my experience what is wanted is to feel wanted

This.

Yeah. Some of this comes from a place of insecurity (which let's face it, the hobby has enough of).

The hard truth is there are very few character concepts that can truly guarantee someone interactions. Sure, staff can drive it through plot or setting design.

But for the most part we get out of it what we put into it. If you are fun to play with, people will play with you.

[Tinuviel]

@arkandel said in The Desired Experience:

But for the most part we get out of it what we put into it.

And we can only put into it as much as it can take.

---

1. Don't advertise, suggest, or recommend a character type that won't see much of the main action. e.g. A punk rock singer that never leaves Earth isn't going to feature much on an episode of Star Trek, no matter how cool they are.

2. If the main driving plot of the game, if there is one, isn't for you then perhaps the game isn't for you. You could certainly enjoy yourself playing whatever in the background, but don't expect that to be the case, and don't whine if you don't get the fun you wanted.

3. Everyone is responsible for everyone else's fun, to a point. If a player mentions that they're not having much fun, then do your best to accommodate them in your play - but if they're tiresome or playing a concept that doesn't really jive well with what you're doing, that's okay. You've made the effort.

Any other points need covering?

[Carma]

This post is deleted!

[Arkandel]

@tinuviel said in The Desired Experience:

2. If the main driving plot of the game, if there is one, isn't for you then perhaps the game isn't for you. You could certainly enjoy yourself playing whatever in the background, but don't expect that to be the case, and don't whine if you don't get the fun you wanted.

I like this point because it's true, but also ties into 'expectations'.

No player's expectations supersede those of the game's runners. If I want grimdark fantasy and join a political L&L game then I should reconsider whether it's a good fit for me, not try to inject my own preferences through my General Butcher character.

[Derp]

@tinuviel said in The Desired Experience:

Everyone is responsible for everyone else's fun, to a point. If a player mentions that they're not having much fun, then do your best to accommodate them in your play - but if they're tiresome or playing a concept that doesn't really jive well with what you're doing, that's okay. You've made the effort.

Not sure that I agree with this one. I would say that each of us are responsible for our own fun. None of us owe anything to anyone else by default. The only thing you owe to other people is the commitment you voluntarily make. If you know for a fact that someone is not going to click with your style, you don't owe it to them to try to bring them in. You don't have to make the effort. You don't have to suffer for their fun.

Making your own fun almost always requires roping in others. But you are under absolutely no obligation to do so for anyone in particular, especially for people that are going to diminish your own fun.

As Arkandel said: If you're fun to play with, people will play with you. And if you aren't, then staff can't help you with interpersonal skills. We don't have any lending copies. Ours are barely legible.

[Tinuviel]

@derp said in The Desired Experience:

I would say that each of us are responsible for our own fun.

Sure, except I disagree with the idea behind this. If we're only responsible for our own fun, and that's it, then our fun is going to trounce all others' when in practice this isn't remotely true. We know that we should give time for others to shine, and not always hog the spotlight.

If you're in a group with ten other people, and everyone is focusing on making the thing fun for everyone else, then you've got eleven people making sure you have fun instead of just one.

@derp said in The Desired Experience:

You don't have to make the effort. You don't have to suffer for their fun.

These two things aren't the same. Make an effort to be inclusive and provide fun for others, but if you know you're not a right match you don't have to keep trying. That's literally what I said.

[Arkandel]

@tinuviel The way I see it any number of external factors can contribute to helping someone find play. The character concept is one, staff (or PrP runners') willingness and ability to get someone looped into plots, the game itself might offer mechanics to either make search for scenes easier or to even incentivize it.

But the largest of those factors by far is how fun it is to play with us. And that's something no one can just hand out. All we get is an increased opportunity to showcase that when we do play with others.

[Tinuviel]

@arkandel said in The Desired Experience:

But the largest of those factors by far is how fun it is to play with us.

Obviously. That's kind of my point. If you're taking some level of responsibility for others having fun when they're with you, then they're going to have fun when they're with you.

[Derp]

@tinuviel said in The Desired Experience:

If we're only responsible for our own fun, and that's it, then our fun is going to trounce all others' when in practice this isn't remotely true.

And if you choose to trounce everyone else's fun, then you are likely going to be removed from play by someone who made a commitment to others to ensure they are having fun. Because when you joined the game, you made a commitment to the staff that you aren't going to try to trounce on anyone else's fun, express or implied. That's part of the package. And the staff made a commitment to players not to let a disruptive presence trounce their fun.

And then you will no longer be having fun, thus sabotaging your own efforts to be responsible for your own fun.

An argument could be made that by choosing to join in that group you made a commitment to that group. But your argument is only valid while you're a part of said group.

@tinuviel said in The Desired Experience:

These two things aren't the same

They are if you already know you aren't going to click with them. Or just flat out don't want to play with them.

@tinuviel said in The Desired Experience:

Make an effort to be inclusive and provide fun for others, but if you know you're not a right match you don't have to keep trying.

You don't have to start trying. That's literally what I said. You are under no obligations to anyone, at any time, except the people that you make a commitment to.

[Tinuviel]

@derp said in The Desired Experience:

They are if you already know you aren't going to click with them. Or just flat out don't want to play with them.

Then don't play with them. "Be inclusive" doesn't mean "play with everyone no matter what."

[Arkandel]

@tinuviel said in The Desired Experience:

Then don't play with them. "Be inclusive" doesn't mean "play with everyone no matter what."

It can, though. I'm not arguing that it should, but to some that's exactly what it means.

I was pretty shocked back on HM when I realized @EmmahSue basically took all RP at face value. She'd literally join any available scenes and stayed in it until she legitimately needed to leave OOC or there was a solid IC reason to do so. For a faction head and popular character that was rather unconventional.

Other players can't or simply won't do that. They cherry-pick more, especially in terms of fit ('should my nobleman get in a scene with this sailor'), so they can achieve IC goals ('if I play with everyone who wants an audience with the Prince I'll never do stuff I need to get done') or simply for their own sanity ('sigh, another sucky random scene').

I'd like to say I'm more like the former but I'm definitely not.

[Devrex]

@arkandel Used to be the former, but then I ran out of steam. So much steam. And had enough scenes that way that just became painful.

And the sort of...dark side of becoming a heavy duty ST for me was the more I did it/do it the less and less I feel comfortable going into a scene without being able to offer an RP hook, without knowing what the scene is about, without having a whole-ass pitch that is basically often like a mini-ST'd scene in and of itself. I feel like if I can't offer that I don't even feel like anyone would want the scene anyway. So yeah, sitting there going: well, shit, how can I conceivably bring this noble and sailor together is legit part of my process, and the sad fact is if I can't figure it out I don't ask.

And don't tend to feel comfortable asking the sailor to come up with something or even to brainstorm, especially if I don't know the sailor player. It's not personal to that guy, it's not anything about whether he's fun or not, it's just I don't have an "in" and What Makes Story Sense is a big part of how I work...and definitely not asking other people to do the creative labor to put me in a scene with them, that burden's on me. Now if he asks? Comes in with an idea? I'm there, absolutely, and happy to do it, but it doesn't happen very often cause, I mean you know, not everyone is a storyteller at heart, and that's allowed, and those that are, well, they're also allowed to have as few ideas for that scenario as I do.

And once the scene is going, if I sense even a little that my scene partner is not having fun that becomes a whole deal TOO, so I feel responsible for making the scene just really really peak fun, and if I can't reassure myself that I Can Make Fun Happen it's really hard to ask even the people I do know and love RPing with.

It's not always about Cliquey Elitist Snobby Mean People, sometimes it's anxiousness or creative exhaustion or a number of other issues which can arise.

[Derp]

@devrex said in The Desired Experience:

It's not always about Cliquey Elitist Snobby Mean People, sometimes it's anxiousness or creative exhaustion or a number of other issues which can arise.

For me, it's just a literal matter of time.

My job is hard. It requires a lot of brainpower. My RL is hectic. I get home, and I have maybe, maybe two hours in which I can reasonably do something with full brain capacity. My weekends are not that much better. And I've had other obligations that just come before storytelling.

I'm not looking to have a huge friend circle. I don't need to be involved with every single other character on the game. I don't want to spoil their fun. But I'm also not responsible for it, either. I just wanna log in, grab the people that I know and trust, and do a thing before utter mental fatigue carries me away, often times while doing something else.

(You and I have played a number of times while I am cooking, or doing laundry, or dishes.)

I don't want to worry about what new people think of me. I don't want to worry about trying to keep it up near the top of Dunbar's Number.

I just wanna do things with the four or five people I trust, and maybe put a few new feelers out every once in awhile if the mood strikes.

And absolutely nobody is going to convince me that I am responsible for including the rest of the game and being responsible for the personal fun-factor of people other than me and the handful of people that I want to deal with on any given day.

[mietze]

I try to make each scene fun for people regardless of who is there (except for large info dump scenes which tend to give me anxiety).

I think for the most part I succeed and have been told so by a variety of people not just those that are my friends, but I find that if I get too tired to issue invites or chase folks it is rarely reciprocated, which can lead to a spiral of worry (are people just saying they like my rp but they're relieved when they don't have to). Then I worry that maybe there are people who worry the same thing about me.

I really do think that make your own fun is very dependent on the fun that you like. If it's a game that is highly staff dependent, then that is out of your control. If you love being able to participate in a st scene that's not you STing and nobody is willing to reciprocate bc of time/intimidation/ect (i don't think it makes people bad) then no matter how much you put into it you are unlikely to get the thing you most want. And then you have to deal with people getting upset over your fun (how many times here have I read people shitting on people who never come out of private rooms or who "only" like social play instead of being all up in the metaplot and srs bsns like "real" gamers are.. , the answer is a lot)

[il-volpe]

@derp said in The Desired Experience:

As Arkandel said: If you're fun to play with, people will play with you. And if you aren't, then staff can't help you with interpersonal skills.

@derp said in The Desired Experience:

I just wanna do things with the four or five people I trust, and maybe put a few new feelers out every once in awhile if the mood strikes.