Comparing and Contrasting the Clans of VTR2

[tragedyjones]

Also a quick scan shows that Majesty doesn't actually rely on the Social Maneuvers system. If players are flat out just ignoring social stats in general, fuck 'em.

[Groth]

Majesty does not at all use the Social Manoeuvres or Doors, it bypasses those systems entirely and uses its own system just like Dominate does.

Awe unlocks the use of Confidant and Idol. Confidant unlocks the use of Green Eyes and Loyalty, both of which allow you to make people want what you want them to want. Idol makes anyone that isn't highly resistant fail in opposing you in any way.

[Derp]

See, I'm not sure that I agree that this discipline isn't meant to use the Social Maneuvering rules.

When he wills it, all eyes fall on the vampire and nobody cares what he’s doing. For the rest of the scene, he suffers no penalties to Social rolls from his actions or appearance — even if he’s just beaten another man to death or waved a gun in a crowded nightclub. Given a chance, he can talk his way out of minor criminal offenses and almost any social faux pas. As the center of attention, he adds his Majesty dots to any Presence rolls when talking to people around him. This bonus only applies when talking to people normally, not to other uses of Majesty.

That part seems to pretty clearly indicate that it's used for regular social rolls. It doesn't bypass them. If anything, it reinforces that they need to be used.

But there's also Blood Bonds, too, not just the Majesty discipline Take a look at the very top tier, which mechanically provides:

When taking a Social maneuver against her thrall, the regnant’s impression is always considered perfect (see p. 174). As well, she gains a +3 die penalty on any Social action or Discipline roll against the thrall.

That is absolutely doors. It straight up says social maneuvering, and gives an indication of Impression, which there's no other reason for tracking than the SM rules.

So while I think vampires are pretty awesome, I'm not sure that they work so well on MU's under the new system, because a lot of their powers that aren't 'kill you dead motherfucker' fall under the 'Now Newly Optional' guidelines that OP was short-sighted enough to put in the books without really checking to see what other systems it affects.

If a MU makes it clear that SM is being used, then it's not an issue. If they say it's not, then it's a fairly substantial issue. I've seen many a Daeva bellyaching that they feel like they're getting shafted.

[Groth]

Majesty gives bonuses to the Doors system in addition to all other effects. It in no way relies on that sub-system to achieve its effects.

[tragedyjones]

Getting shafted is something many Daeva actively enjoy, though.

[Ganymede]

@Groth said:

The second most powerful combat discipline in the game is Majesty.

You're kidding, right? If you want to start any effect, you need to hoist up Awe. And Awe can be broken via Lashing Out. From personal experience, Majesty will get you nowhere if you're up against a vampire with higher Potency.

No, the best part about Majesty is the number of useful Devotions attached to it. Enfeebling Aura, Wet Dream, etc.

[Groth]

@Ganymede said:

@Groth said:

The second most powerful combat discipline in the game is Majesty.

You're kidding, right? If you want to start any effect, you need to hoist up Awe. And Awe can be broken via Lashing Out. From personal experience, Majesty will get you nowhere if you're up against a vampire with higher Potency.

No, the best part about Majesty is the number of useful Devotions attached to it. Enfeebling Aura, Wet Dream, etc.

1. You can only lash out against Awe if you're aware it's active, which is non-obvious.
2. Lashing out costs both a point of willpower and your action for that turn.
3. You have to successfully lash out and even those that succeed, only protect themselves. Majesty based vampires have a strong incentive to have the better lashing out die pool.
4. My Vampire on RfK successfully used Awe+Idol to subdue the entire Primogen council.

[tragedyjones]

Just a clarification, Lashing Out only costs a Willpower when defending against a Kindred with higher BP. Initiating it is free.

[Ganymede]

@Groth said:

You can only lash out against Awe if you're aware it's active, which is non-obvious.

It's not easy to read into the power and discover that it can be non-obvious. Regardless, the text simply states that a vampire can lash out to "fortify" themselves against Awe, which to me means that one can lash out any time the power is brought to bear, obvious or not.

You have to successfully lash out and even those that succeed, only protect themselves. Majesty based vampires have a strong incentive to have the better lashing out die pool.

See my previous comment about folks with a higher Blood Potency. If you're the head honcho, it's fantastic. If you're not, less so. Frankly, Dominate seems far better to end a confrontation, if that's the goal.

N.B.: Some have interpreted the Lashing Out defense as causing a Condition if successful. Not sure if others feel the same way; I don't think it is entirely clear in the book whether this is the case.

[Groth]

@tragedyjones said:

Just a clarification, Lashing Out only costs a Willpower when defending against a Kindred with higher BP. Initiating it is free.

Further, a vampire can voluntarily intensify her predatory
aura to elicit a reaction. Against other Kindred, this escalates
the encounter, forcing fight or flight instincts. Against mortals,
this asserts power and cows the lesser creatures. Lashing out
with the Beast takes an instant action, and against Kindred
costs a point of Willpower. It’s free to use against a mortal.

[Bobotron]

The benefits of Dominate are not inconsequential. The benefits of Dominate, however, are hard to handle on a MU* because of all the crazy we have all discussed time and again. It's not a stick to beat someone with like other Disciplines can be used for.

The benefits of Dominate, however, go beyond just 'what you can do to a PC' with it directly.

• Jane has a ghoul, Tony. You get ahold of Tony and you spend some time talking to him and putting in Dominate triggers for a variety of things that are innocuous but will be ways you can get information and one-up Jane later.
• You hate Jane and dominate a number of gangbangers to attempt a not-so-discrete assassination attemption, giving them the plausible internal story of 'their gang rivals were there and they saw an opportunity' if someone questions them on the mortal side, and taking care to remove the memories of you talking to the couple of Dominates gangbangers in such a way that people won't see there was a Dominate command used.
• You dominate the zoning commission to destroy the old Landers estate, which you happened to find out from Tony is where Jane's Super Secret Haven is. Bonus is that you can have this done during the day and ensure that the location of Jane's personal sleeping quarters is uncovered and exposed to the sun.
• You Dominate the head of LexCorp into investing in the project that you want him to fund, during a meeting at a posh restaurant between the two of you.

Dominate is a great Discipline; you just have to use it as less of a stick, and as more of a tool to get things done in sidelong ways.

[Groth]

Dominate is great outside of combat. Inside of combat I'd rather have Majesty due to the AoE Sledgehammer nature of the effect, it achieves similar things to Obfuscate in that even if one person might be able to act against you the fact noone else can shifts the odds dramatically in your favor. If you really want to push it you can even go with the Cerberus bloodline at which point losing a Lashing Out contest isn't going to happen.

[tragedyjones]

I stand corrected re: Lashing Out. Defending only costs a Willpower if your BP is lower. My bad.

[tragedyjones]

Doublepost again. I did often feel weird using Dominate on PCs. Just how I am. And yet I was the guy on TR who would slam someone with months of Depression via Despond for kicks.

[Jaded]

@tragedyjones

Great synopsis on the clans Tragedy. I really liked the write up for the Nosferatu. You really hit on what made playing mine on RfK pretty damn fun and entertaining.

Gotta love the creepy.

[Groth]

Creepy Nosferatu are awesome. Jadeds Nosferatu was awesome. These two things may be related.

[Ganymede]

@tragedyjones said:

I did often feel weird using Dominate on PCs. Just how I am.

I don't, but this is because I usually ask whether it's okay to use the power on a player's PC. Most are okay with it; some ask what I intend to have them do; but few outright demand I not do so.

[Coin]

I like having my character trick someone else's into something like a Blood Bond, for example, in a subtle way that allows for me to fudge something minor and give them an out. And then I say, "this happened--but if you're not comfortable with that, I have an out to give you if you don't want to play that." It lets me play my character as clever as I envision them (and can manage) without boxing someone into RP they may not want or care to try.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede said:

@tragedyjones said:

I did often feel weird using Dominate on PCs. Just how I am.

I don't, but this is because I usually ask whether it's okay to use the power on a player's PC. Most are okay with it; some ask what I intend to have them do; but few outright demand I not do so.

They shouldn't. I can see how someone might take exception at what the command is, but if another player is considerate enough to ask (which they don't have to) all I'd be willing to do is discuss the extent of what it does. Saying 'no' is silly. Would/could they say 'no' to being IC punched in the face?

Now if the command is something people might not want to play that's a different ballgame. But being the target of a power in general? Deal with it, dude.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Arkandel
I have seen PCs saying no to being punched in the face, or at least to combat being initiated.
Heck I have done it to a limited extent, I was in a scene with someone else it had a nice flow to it and two folks came in and wanted to start random violence mainly cause they admitted they were bored, and wanted to spice things up. While not outright refusing I simply stated I wanted a staffer to run the combat since I didn't know these two from Adam, they lefts to find in there words, "Someone cool, who wants to have fun."
In the case of Dominate if it is someone I know I am cool with it, anyone I didn't know I would make the same request, Hey it is your power and you are free to use it but lets wait to let staff handle the process.