Space Lords and Ladies
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I am honestly not sure what happened to Lextius in particular, back in like... 2002, he was the chillest staffer imaginable who went out of his way to let PCs feel and be awesome and let you tell these amazing personal stories.
On Star Crusade he was still great fun to RP with as one of his player characters but his staff decisions all seemed to be oriented around maximum fucking up of PCs in an extremely toxic manner.
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@Packrat I think Lex pretty much checked out of MUing during SC. I don't actually remember him being around much. I think RL work was just very busy.
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Lextius went out of his way back on Fading Suns: Vargo to fuck up PCs in a toxic manner. It wasn't just a Star Crusade phenomenon. Maybe it was just fucking up PCs that were not in his faction (i.e. the Hawkwood contingent that I was a part of and the Hazat contingent that Custodius was a part of) back then.
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@Apollonius I still giggle at the attempts to get intel out of Sofia from Custodius' Hazat. "WHERE ARE YOUR BOATS?!" "Presumably in the water..."
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I distinctly remember Custodius' Hazat on Vargo had a vassal who controlled basically the whole Hazat whole navy, he used to bitch endlessly about how his peace efforts were unsuccessful.
Not knowing that she was using 'his' (her) navy to pirate raid coastlines 24/7 regardless of whom Custodius had decided to be at war or at peace with.
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@silentsophia It was awfully convenient how that chick showed up to pretend she wanted to cooperate with family and that she was family-first. Thankfully, Sans and Sofia knew how to keep their mouths shut.
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@deadculture I just thought it was hilarious that the gal was like "LET'S BE FRIENDS, SOFIA." "Uh. Sure?" Though, Sofia trusted her as far as she could throw the gal because she was one of Renaud's peeps. But hey, RP is RP, so we gave her a chance. It was hilarious that the gal was like "I HAVE NO HOBBIES. ONLY WAR." And Sofia just ... sort of ... smiled and nodded. Even Hazat need a day off. Conversation was kind of hopeless because she kept asking Sofia about her ships, where they were and what was going on.
It really was as subtle as Hulk Hogan in drag.
I give her points for trying subterfuge, but ... yeah. Being well mannered didn't mean she was stupid. Sofia really did want to try diplomacy first, and I enjoy RPing with lots of people. It just didn't work out for me.
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Suffice to say, @Packrat, if you go through with this idea, or go FS, just heed where your predecessors went wrong: you need to make people cap at the baron level; allows for more 'big time' players and even chances for conflict, rather than polarize everything around 4 PCs.
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@Packrat This Vassal (Skye) was betrothed to Michael's right hand Hawkwood (Benoite). Benoite got Skye's League alt pregnant. Skye then had an affair with Benoite's Scraver alt and got knocked up by one of them.
Skye and Benoite were a RL married couple who spent their time TSing on Vargo.
I don't really understand how Custodius DIDN'T know that Skye was raiding the crap out of the Vargens. It was common knowledge that Skye had been delegated so much of the Hazat forces by Custodius that the Hawkwoods tolerated Skye and Benoite's shenanigans OOC so that Skye could push for a coup... that got aborted by baby troubles.
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@deadculture said:
Suffice to say, @Packrat, if you go through with this idea, or go FS, just heed where your predecessors went wrong: you need to make people cap at the baron level; allows for more 'big time' players and even chances for conflict, rather than polarize everything around 4 PCs.
That is pretty much the plan, the current theme leads to a very flat structure, with allied family groups in symbiotic rather than hierarchical relationships.
Basically inheritance is tied to hypertech starships, primary heirs are given the mind interface implants to pilot and command the family starship at a young age (Implanting them later is traumatic and difficult to 'sync up' with, hence a heft xp cost that can be met by lowering stats).
These ships are extraordinarily capable, fast, dangerous, also flying super tech palaces and with automated manufacturies that are the main source of the superior technology which is the key to Space Noble power. They do need support to keep running though and those manufacturies need to be fed with transuranic elements and supplies. 'Void Lords' also traditionally do not hold any fixed assets, they have their ship and perhaps an accompanying fleet or squadron, they are taxed Prestige heavily if they try to maintain planetary or space based holdings.
They are expected to acquire such holdings for their younger siblings though, who are then expected to support their space fairing peer. (Who is liable to have better spacefleet command skills also) Space Nobles holding planetary holdings are the main source of Wealth (cash, consumer goods, fancy clothes, etc), Space Nobles holding orbital installations are the main source of Industry (Shipyards, heavy munitions, fuel, space tanks, powered armour, etc). A handful control transuranic element mines in key strategic systems and thus need a steady supply of Wealth and Supplies (produced by Industry) in order to feed their output of Rare Elements – which they can sell to Void Lords for a huge amount.
There are various Imperial administrative positions, which give a titular right to tax trade between star systems and are likely to be major points of social competition given they are quasi elective. Actually collecting said taxes requires the resources to do so though and such individuals are supposed to be maintaining the local (and cut off) Imperial Fleet presence. They also have limited and understaffed oversight meaning that corruption is likely to be very tempting.
The Imperial Fleet is commanded by Space Nobles who are related to the main landed family lines, normally those too far down the line of succession to get their own holdings or starships. It is also cut off and without any ability to maintain itself beyond that which the aforementioned Imperial Governors might supply, making them extremely vulnerable to political pressure. They do however have specialist Hypertech starships purpose built for war and a modest number of conventional warships and troops, all with crack crews. Plus the officers are at least theoretically professional military types who are loyal to the Emperor and focused on their war stuff rather than politics!
Hypertech (produced by starships using Rare Elements) is required for the absolute best personal scale equipment and personal scale spacecraft, it is also used for maintaining the fanciest levels of Lifestyle spending. Additionally it is needed for equipping Drop Commandos, the scariest special forces soldiers, repairing Space Noble starships, and also any miscellaneous super technology gadgets people might want.
Wealth is needed by all Space Nobles to maintain their lifestyle spending, the main way to gain social currency. It is also used to raise and pay armies and is required in smaller quantities for warships.
Industry is needed in small quantities for 'heavier' armies, space tanks, powered armour, etc, also for fancy space palaces. The main use however is construction and maintenance of starships, conventional starships are absolutely not on par with Hypertech Space Noble starships but they are vastly more numerous and a key factor in space combat is boarding – where they are not hugely at a disadvantage (though they are too slow to board Space Noble starships really).
The end result is hopefully going to be a cat herding clusterfuck – especially as Space Nobles are expected to duel each other at the slightest impugnation of their of honour and various houses should begin with rivalries and contentions. Fundamentally Space Nobles are supposed to have the edge though and so I am stacking the deck in their favour, having a player character Space Noble who is specialised in something running a fief, training an army, etc, should make it 2-3 times as effective as it would be otherwise.
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@Packrat Be careful you don't fix things to much in the Space Nobles advantage so that they don't become an insurmountable thing. When the only way to get ahead is to min max, people will min max and imho that puts a focus on roll play over role-play.
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@Lithium said:
@Packrat Be careful you don't fix things to much in the Space Nobles advantage so that they don't become an insurmountable thing. When the only way to get ahead is to min max, people will min max and imho that puts a focus on roll play over role-play.
My planned mechanic there is that you have three 'Strategic Actions' an OOC month, which could be say, managing your fief, or training troops. If you have a skill above a certain level then you need to spend one of your Strategic Actions to maintain it however. So if you are the bestest sword master EVAR then you are dedicating a significant proportion of your efforts to Swording and this limits your ability to achieve other goals.
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@Packrat So what kind of units are you planning for a typical space navy?
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I'd say, one thing I don't quite get in your theme, is what really holds your pyramid structure in shape.
If the rare elements are the key to everything, why are the guys who control them not actually in charge (or what stops them from upsetting the social order to quickly put themselves in charge)? What stops a small alliance of orbital and planetary rulers (ie, something a few friendly players could easily organize) from having a self-sufficient empire? Also what does prestige do to make it matter, and why? (Don't take this as dismissive, but they seem like game/theme design issues).
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@deadculture said:
@Packrat So what kind of units are you planning for a typical space navy?
The current line up I have is the following:
Corvette: Local patrol and escort vessel, moderate to fast speed, low combat abilities, very cheap. Largely a civilian spec ship with weapons added. Assuming equivalent crew roughly on par with the kind of thing pirates might use. This is the kind of ship you use if you are being harassed by pirates or raiders, or want to collect taxes.
Frigate: Scout, patrol and escort vessel, used for fleet screening, skirmishing and raiding. Better than a corvette for everything but less cost efficient for escort and patrol duties.
Ship of the Line: Basically a battleship, not very fast, but very powerful for direct combat and extremely cost efficient for that role. Can carry two battalions (approximately 1000) of troops.
Cruiser: Largest conventional warship, faster than a ship of the line, or a frigate, and slightly more powerful than a ship of a line in a fight, but significantly more expensive. Carries one battalion of troops. Used as flagships or for independent long ranged patrols/missions, or for superheavy commerce raiders.Space combat using ranged attacks can cripple ships but rarely kills them, boarding actions are the 'decisive' way of resolving fights in a lot of cases, especially as large warships are expensive and stealing them extremely worthwhile. To put it in perspective the Yellow guys in the example planet map I put up could probably afford one Ship of the Line every RL month (3 IC months) if they were being frugal and support around say, ten at maximum (assuming they were keeping some margin)
Ground combat units are as follows:
Conscript Battalion: Super cheap to raise, moderately dreadful. Basically used for garrison duties.
Infantry Battalion: Costs a lot more to raise (4x as much) but only twice as much to maintain, about twice as effective, though that does depend upon training. All around good investment, solid for garrison/oppression duties, affordable for use as marines if you field a lot of ships of the line.
Armoured Battalion: Very expensive but a lot more powerful (especially if you have your own Industry to equip them). Also cannot take part in ship boarding actions. These are probably what you want to use to attack a planet after you have secured a beachhead if transport capability is limited, they are by far the most capable ground combat unit weight for weight outside of Drop Commandos.
Shock Battalion: Power armoured infantry, basically like infantry but better, around 4x the cost for about 2x the combat power. (numbers still in flux). Great for ship boarding actions if you are outnumbered, or securing beachheads in planetary assaults, etc.
Drop Commando Company: Cybernetically augmented special forces equipped with limited quantities of Space Noble grade gear, meaning that they can be dropped from orbit and reenter in their fancy armour suits + energy shields. They are roughly on par with an infantry battalion (but normally better trained, also worse at occupation/oppression duty), however this is a unit 1/4 of the size of an infantry battalion. Hideously expensive but also the best way to secure landing zones on planets, do special forces stuff, have an elite bodyguard, or stuff your Space Noble super ship with mega badasses to make it win boarding actions.I am still playing with the numbers for the super tech Space Noble ships but the basic idea is that 'Conventional' vessels come in three weights.
The lightest is significantly but not hugely more powerful than a Cruiser, faster than any conventional vessel and has moderate space palace/manufacturing abilities along with no significant troop transport ability.
The next tier is a match for three ships of the line or two and a bit cruisers, as fast as a cruiser, with greater space palace powers and about 1.5x the manufacturing abilities. Able to carry a battalion of troops.
The largest is a little slower than a cruiser, around frigate speed, but can fight five ships of the line at once, with about triple the smallest ship's manufacturing capability and mega space palace level luxury. Also able to hold two battalions of troops.Outright Space Noble warships are altogether different beasts and come only in two flavours. Destroyers and Battlecruisers. They are far better for fighting but vastly weaker economically and are largely limited to the Imperial Navy, with likely the odd House noble captaining a Destroyer.
Destroyers go at Ludicrous Speed and are roughly a match for two cruisers at once, but have no Space Palace rating, carry one battalion of troops and have just enough Hypertech manufacturing capability to maintain themselves assuming a supply of materials.
Battlecruisers are a bit faster than a cruiser, but can fight eight ships of the line or over six cruisers at once, they only carry two battalions of troops however and have a Space Palace rating roughly equivalent to the smallest conventional Space Noble vessel, their Hypertech manufacturing capabilities roughly on par as well. -
@Packrat One has to wonder, how the space nobles haven't just taken over everything. /EVERYTHING/ if their ships are that much superior to a conventional governments.
For example: A group of 6 to 8 space noble players teams up and wipes out (easily) your 'yellow' factions space navy, then proceeds to take over the planets which now have no way to defend themselves. The players then begin reinforcing their space noble fleet with more traditional fleet ships and supplement their powerbase, expanding it into the next largest faction, so on and so forth.
It sounds like space nobles will very quickly overwhelm everyone with the power disparity you've presented since the lightest space noble ship, is more powerful than a Cruiser, and faster than anything else. That kind of mobile firepower is... insane, from a tactical standpoint.
Hit and Run pin point strike capability of that caliber could dismantle a conventional fleet with little trouble.
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I think that's the point, that Space Nobility has superior ships and can field more troops than anything conventionals could.
@Packrat: I suggest making starfighter or powered armor combat a thing.
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@deadculture Then why haven't they taken over everything already? There's nothing stopping them.
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The main reason is that the Space Elves have technology almost (or at least 2/3 of the way to being) on par with that of the Space Nobles, combined with the fact that exchanges of coilgun fire tend to disable but not actually destroy enemy ships and Space Noble vessels are not able to carry all that many troops compared to significant numbers of conventional warships.
Whilst Yellow could 'only' field ten ships of the line, everyone in the example solar system I statted put together could field at least fifty or sixty, assuming they also had various escort vessels, spending on lifestyles, were saving up extra cash and also have a hundred and twenty battalions of infantry onboard to serve as marines. They could potentially field more like a hundred, but if you can get 6-8 Space Nobles with starships then you can presumably also get a bunch of 'landed' Space Nobles to send in their conventional fleets to bolster them and provide troops/transport capacity, in fact you pretty much need to.
Also the Space Nobles are winning, they are advancing, despite being a snake pit quasi-feudal culture full of infighting. If your character is Space Captain Badass and you have your Space Noble Destroyer, then you can absolutely tear into conventional space fleets like a wolf murdering sheep.
Added: Space Nobles are assumed to start with a full panoply of Space Noble grade gear (unless you are deliberately poor or something). This very much includes a suit of super cool powered armour, you just do not wear this every day or if you are have decided to infiltrate an enemy world and want to go incognito. You do probably wear clothing made of crazy hypertech weave and immune to all kinetic weapons though, meaning that bare skin is a risky fashion choice outside of secure areas given personal shields only defend against energy weapons. Flechette guns (often with exotic ammunition) are the tool of assassins.
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@bored said:
I'd say, one thing I don't quite get in your theme, is what really holds your pyramid structure in shape.
If the rare elements are the key to everything, why are the guys who control them not actually in charge (or what stops them from upsetting the social order to quickly put themselves in charge)? What stops a small alliance of orbital and planetary rulers (ie, something a few friendly players could easily organize) from having a self-sufficient empire? Also what does prestige do to make it matter, and why? (Don't take this as dismissive, but they seem like game/theme design issues).
To answer this part:
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Rare elements are the key to 'the fancy stuff', but this is prone to being overwhelmed by the volume of conventional assets. They can also only be mined in shit solar systems which are not good for much else, you also need Space Noble tech starship and their on board manufacturies to make use of the raw materials. Any noble who holds Rare Element mines is super dependent upon alliances and trade but is liable to be powerful if they play the game well.
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Nothing stops an alliance of planetary and orbital rulers working together her and being really effective, this is kind of how you win. Such rulers will probably have closer IC ties to their sibling starship captains than each other though and Space Noble starships are, as noted, terrifying.
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Most of the Space Nobles will be NPCs, Prestige is social currency, you can spend it either to socially attack/bolster other characters or to do things like buy votes from NPCs, or increase your popularity with your subjects to counterbalance taxing the shit out of them.
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