Controversial posts made by crusader

@Coin said:

My pioint is that you're still arguing they are design flaws when they aren't. We just use them in a medium that makes them more difficult to apply properly. It's two different problems, the latter of which makes your post less of a "fix" and more of a "preference".

If you want to be pedantic about the title of my post, go ahead. I titled it the way it is because Werewolf 2.0's Nine Design Issues That Are More Difficult To Apply Properly In An Online Medium' didn't roll off the tongue so easily. If you want to keep focusing on that, for like the 5th post now, I'm going to begin to wonder where mildly constructive ends and trolling begins. But like Sunny, I know you're only here because of the Detroit thread.

If Detroit is your bar for what is good or fun in werewolf - and that abortion of a werewolf apps page - then I am ecstatic you disagree with my ideas.' Now please, do me the courtesy I afforded you in the Detroit thread, unless you can do something but mention the same damned thing for the sixth time in a row.

@Sunny said:

@Arkandel said:

@crusader I don't think anyone here suggested your ideas are bad, or that a game based on them wouldn't/couldn't be fun.

Just that it's not nWoD, which I think is fair to say is accurate.

This. Exactly this.

You do realize, that I know the only reason you're here, is because of the level of hysteric offense you took, in the Detroit-related thread, where you were in the minority. You've already attacked me in another thread, when I wasn't even remotely engaged with you. But Ark echoed you there as well, and I guess you're repaying the favor.

@Sunny said:

You're displaying very typical poor listening skills; it's very common in meetings and the like to have people closing their mouths while other people are talking, but rather than listening to the other people that are talking and paying attention, the poor listener simply is waiting for their chance to share their opinion further/prove they're right.

Way to make a whole host sweeping over-generalizations, about myself and my views. Where do you even get off talking down to me like this? Who should I be listening to, that I'm not? Who I was arguing with in my post or trying to convince? Where did I say my experiences were more valid than anyone else's? You're the one that seems to have poor listening skills.

In my experience, I've seen people take staff-run plots far more seriously than PrPs, and I've seen PrPs often done in shallow, meaningless fashion just to rack up some XP for participation. If your experience is different, more power to you.

I do prefer a game with dedicated RP staff, and where players that become PrP runners are a bit more vetted, and working with staff.

You don't agree? Fine. But your long, condescending post making various RL allusions in my direction is hardly merited. You don't care how seriously plots or storylines are handled? Fine. I disagree.

I want some element of quality control. You evidently, and feel so strongly about it, as to make attacks on me. That's fine.

I wasn't even in a discussion with you. You seem to have gotten overly worked up about something which had no effect on you, and in which you weren't even addressed. Would you rather just live in an echo chamber?

I'm sure this has nothing to do with my totally unrelated opinion of Detroit's staff, and the way you seem compelled to protect that game against majority opinion.

@ThatGuyThere said:

You never answered my question, what themes are you leaving behind? Honestly I can't think of any besides fighting for territory. With out the higher purpose it seems like gang wars which doesn't particularly interesting to me. And without Harmony any mechanical teeth are taken form a personal story of degradation into a monster. I am not against changes in general, but what to you see the characters doing in this game? And why is what they do ICly important to them? These two things to me are the essential questions or any game design.
For example I avoid D-n-D games that are heavy on the dungeon crawl cause I do not like dungeon crawls. This does not make me or people that like dungeon crawls wrong but it does mean we shouldn't' be in the same d-n-d game. And that includes one of my RL best friends who I game just about anything but d-n-d with.

You're inviting a monster post from me, about the themes staying behind. So you're forewarned.

I like the fact that you're putting the onus on me to set out what's good and stays, and not just what's bad and goes. I'll give it the response it deserves, when I get home tonight.

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Basically... what @HelloRaptor said.

I have zero issues with your proposed changes for whatever games you're running in TT Land. But its not WoD. That's what your group wants, then run with it. But the things you want to remove from the game are what make it a WoD game. Tribes, Auspices, Shadow, Loci, actual raising and lowering of Primal Urge and Harmony... those are all the core precepts of WoD Werewolf.

Also... because I Am Nerd... the movies you're thinking of? 'Alaska vampire' movie is 30 Days of Night. James WOODS and Daniel Baldwin were in John Carpenter's Vampires.

I disagree with what's a core, sacred precept of werewolf. But I understand and respect your position on the matter. But I do think you have it backwards...All that stuff you mentioned is what can work on a tabletop, if you and the group are all on the same page.

It's what I've never seen handled satisfactorily on a MUSH. Not as much Tribes and Auspices, (which is more of a setting, creation thing and actually has almost zero relation to werewolf's core themes), but Loci and Harmony. I've seen very few players handle Morality check requests well. Most try to rules lawyer around them or get offended when brought up. And if Loci at the Reach are anyone's idea of what works on a MUSH, then I pity them.

Anyhow, what's most important is that you solved my mind-itch, as to what those two movies' titles were.

I'm not upset that people disagree with me. But I am bemused at the passion I've seen broached for certain concepts vs the attitude towards them I've seen in practice from the majority of casual players.

What do you think of removing Dalu and Urshul?

@HelloRaptor said:

If somebody posted in the constructive forum that they felt Twilight was the definitive modern vampire fiction, ergo vampires being damaged by sunlight is a design flaw and here's a hack to fix it so people can play Vampire: The Requiem the way it should be played (and why not, since I bet way less than 1 in 4 players or staff ever have sunlight act as any appreciable threat, and just run 99.9999% of their scenes as if it's nighttime anyway), it's entirely likely they'd get mocked and ridiculed instead of getting constructive criticism or feedback.

It's interesting that people are so attached to certain things. The Shadow is not as core to the werewolf thematic experience, as fire is to a vampire, or ghost is to a geist.

I personally think claiming it as such is more an example of a rose-tinted argument. I get it though, that it was an extremely provocative idea to lead off with, and I've considered all the feedback on it valuable. That said, I must reiterate that the idea wasn't even originally mine, but came from a lore hack out of White Wolf's own Chronicles supplement.

What's your attachment to Auspices? The Pure don't have them, and I found the lack of Auspices made pack forming easier and more natural. People gravitated to what they wanted to do and not what they felt like they had to. Auspices were only included as a way to make chargen easier for some people, and function like classes. I've only had a chance to see Pure packs form on a mush a couple times, but both times seemed less stressful without deciding who got stuck as the Elodoth, etc.

What's your attachment to tribes? White Wolf itself will discard the tribes at a moment's notice, depending on the setting, or else break their backs trying to explain away their existence. Tribes were improved in 2.0, but there is still nothing 'core' werewolf about what you choose to call them.

@Coin said:

P.S. I find the comparison with Vampire and how Vampire relates to vampire fiction writ large pointless.

If we use that as a base with which to decide what elements we should and shouldn't keep in the games, Mummy would be a shell of what it is, Demon would be something completely different, Promethean would have no lore, Mage would be even more watered down hermeticism, Changeling would have none of the socio-political backdrop, and Geist just wouldn't even exist.

Changing Breeds might stay more-or-less the same. Maybe.

So basically, the only things that would stay the same are Vampire (not really, IMO, but sure) and possibly the worst game nWoD put out. And maybe Hunter? Maybe.

So that logic just doesn't scan with me.

You're not following the logic very closely then, but I can see how you missed the thread, as we got off onto a real tangent. Essentially, it was along the lines of werewolf being no less WoD for choosing which source material to emphasize at the expense of other sources, just as the writers themselves have suggested or offered examples of.

I also don't understand your statement that my claim to make werewolf more WoD-y is blatantly false. Where in the nwod main book is the Shadow dealt with? In any case, all I've claimed is that my hacks would shift a greater focus of werewolf onto nwod's general preoccupation with primal horror and the human condition, and more away from a pseudo Native American cosmology and spirit world.

Disagree with me all you like, but that seems so far from blatantly false as to basically be unarguable. Of course anything that removes the Shadow is going to focus the game more on werewolf and human interaction. So it really makes me think you're reaching, there.

At the end of the day, no XP system has yet improved on a simple format along the lines of '5-10votes a week, only vote for one person'.

All of these games that give free XP weekly, really only encourage people to never log in and amass huge sums of it on alts.

Past games, like Haunted Memories or Dark Metal had their monsters, of course, but they were cyclical. It encouraged twinks to go out and RP at the very least.

On The Reach, everyone is a monster to a ridiculous degree. It's not even worth playing when after a few months, you can basically be a master at everything. No one can have a niche.