Tangental Ad Homenem Theatre has ended.
Tangential Ad Hominem Theater begins.
Can't you find someone else's thread to troll?
http://i.imgur.com/fhUtdpI.jpg
Honestly, if you weren't a decent coder, website builder and community organizer, I don't think anyone would have a use for you.
@Sunny said:
Peas? Carrots? What? In what fashion is my having fun on a game you don't like actually an insult? I like different things than you do. My way of doing things is just as valid as yours is, and turning into a rabid moon monkey because I dared disagree with you more than once...isn't doing you any favors, guy.
What am I? A tiny zebra? A rabid moon monkey? Don't be so transparent. I know what you were doing. You know what you were doing. If you want to pretend otherwise, have at it. Your posts speak for themselves, even if you have an interesting habit of walking back insulting statements and claiming innocence, when called on certain things. Roar on, frenzied mongoose.
@Misadventure said:
So instead of flaws, read the word as issues, and get onto discussing whether players will miss these things, or if there are other approaches to fixing the issues, or related issues, mentioned.
Right. I'm still really curious in people's opinions of #2-#9, if they can get away from the Shadow bit.
I fully take the blame for leading off with the most controversial and provocative statement. But in my defense, it's not like I pulled it out of my ass. It's lifted almost wholesale from one of WW's own publications. (Albeit, a semi-official mini-pdf released online). So it never occurred to me that the Shadow was a fundamental part of the werewolf experience. I find it interesting that it touched a nerve in so many veterans. And it will influence my thoughts on it and how I broach it to people in the future.
@ThatGuyThere said:
Wow I think we have a major disconnect as to what a major theme is. I have never found fire to be much of a theme at all in vampire, a weapon yes but not really a theme anymore then guns are a theme in most games with a modern setting. Useful tools and weapons yes but rarely more then that.
Maybe we should try a different tactic in this discussion, what are the major werewolf things you are keeping?
As far as removing the forms I would be a little disappointed cause I tended to be in Urshal a lot when playing a werewolf, but really that change would not matter much. I would just rarely be in any form but human with being a wolf occasionally. I think I was in the war form twice in playing wolves across two different games.
I think discussion on point #1 has more or less run its course. I totally respect people's opinions about it. I do think some are reaching for low fruit in attaching a much greater importance to the Shadow as a vehicle for 'outrage'. The Shadow is what it is. If a small, tight group can make it work, then great. But it's one of those things where if everyone isn't on board and equally OOCly knowledgeable, it tends to suck. And most nwod Forsaken players treat it like owod umbra anyways.
Furthermore, Forsaken 2.0 divorced the Shadow even more strongly from the game, as four of the tribes are built in such a way that they have no reason to ever enter the Shadow and are even suggested not to. Going into the Shadow is a niche Bone Shadow thing. The mechanics for entering the Shadow were made more difficult.
Tribes and Auspices are entirely irrelevant as to anything but a White Wolf paradigm charater creation process.
Totem spirits and loci are never given attention by staff in an online game. So removing them and replacing them with a kind of fluid pack dynamic, makes sense. Better staff doesn't solve the issue. Not unless you had one great staffer per pack.
I struggle to realistically accept any of these as core parts of werewolf's deeper themes.
But thank you for mentioning the point about dalu and urshul. That mirrors the experiences I've had both as staff and storyteller, with my players. Those two forms received about 90% of the action, as opposed to man, wolf or wolf-man. And I do honestly think that is a tragedy and IS a flaw in the system.
@Coin said:
My pioint is that you're still arguing they are design flaws when they aren't. We just use them in a medium that makes them more difficult to apply properly. It's two different problems, the latter of which makes your post less of a "fix" and more of a "preference".
You've already taken issue with my title. 
What do you think about the other eight points, btw?
@Arkandel said:
What people are saying is that the things you find disagreeable with nWoD Werewolf are pretty much... the game. You could gut them out, sure, but at that point why start with that particular game at all and not base it on something else instead? What you are proposing is like saying "I like Geist except for all this ghost stuff" - more power to you, but what you'd have in the end is something else entirely.
I get it. I get it. I don't mind the discussion, I welcome it. I'm still going to reply, and try to correct what I feel are misperceptions or over-emphasizing on the wrong points. Some people will have good and valuable insight, like you, and some will be dicks like Theno. I'm at peace with that.
But I'll say this as gently and sincerely as possible...What I don't need is you or anyone else attempting to explain what others mean.
Trust me...I get exactly what they mean. I'm not sure that they get what I mean. But I'm crystal clear on the main thrust of the push back to removing the Shadow.
Personally, I don't think a pseudo Native American spirit cosmology is as central to the werewolf experience as ghosts are to geist. It's a completely ancillary, fantasy aspect of the game that was built on top of the popular culture tropes. I got the idea for dumping it from a hack written by one of Forsaken's own writers, in the mini Chronicles pdf.
It's okay that other people are far more invested in the spirit aspect. I'm not trying to convert anyone. Only correct misunderstandings in my position. I'll be interested to hear about the other points as they relate to a mush.
Personally, I think if these elements were gone, they would not be nearly as missed as some are claiming here, no more than taboo werewolf sex was missed, or lupus and metis. But I understand the incentive to claim otherwise.
I think a lot of veteran's opinions would dramatically change as to what they considered core themes, if they were put in the position of dealing with more people who can essentially grasp the popular tropes and human condition/horror aspects of a game, but are never going to read deeply into the fantasy lore or meaningfully tell the difference between a Storm Lord and a Blood Talon - or care. It might also surprise you to learn that at least 3/4ths of any werewolf sphere on any mush is equally ignorant/unconcerned/still thinks its owod, and just go through the motions if someone can walk them through the totem/loci/chiminiage/spirit interaction. Auspices are essentially no more than a short hand for classes, and don't most people prefer the freedom of a classless system?
I also wouldn't mind the opinion of anyone that's ever head staffed a werewolf sphere, or run a long term werewolf tabletop game.
@Coin said:
"What I Think Doesn't Work About Werewolf 2.0 On MUs and How I Would Fix It" would be a better title.
I considered that, and then I considered the two separate groups I've run tabletop for, one more or less new to the hobby and the other owod veterans, who also strongly disliked the Shadow/spirit emphasis. I've seen many groups form under many different circumstances, and with veterans from newbs (although strangely, I am the only one that has ever MUSHed among either set), and I know what worked and what was less accessible to them.
In any case, I will be interested to hear what others think about points #2 -> #9.
I must say though, that I can't help but roll my eyes at the defense of Harmony in this thread. Everywhere I've ever staffed, whenever a Harmony/Morality/Humanity roll was called for, 8 times out of 10, the player would throw a fit about it, and I've seen multiple sessions, both online and on table, that devolved into people arguing about whether they should take a Morality check.
Forsaken 2.0 has a ton more of these, and I find they interrupt gameplay too often. On a mush, Harmony was already mostly ignored or handwaved.
What I find fascinating, is that what a lot of people are claiming to be their favorite part of the game, is the exact part which on various mushes, gets either abused, gamed, neglected, handwaved, ignored or misunderstood most often.
I understand people have attachments to a certain idealized way of doing things in their mind, but at some point we must admit to ourselves that certain systems do not translate well to a MUSH environment, and are not nearly as central to the theme of wod werewolf as some would like to imagine.
@surreality said:
Yeah, I think there's room for a 'werewolf as the pop culture example goes' style of game -- it just... isn't really what nWoD werewolf is.
I have to wonder, though, if that is the direction they aim to go with the Pure in 2e. That would be interesting.
I'm glad I made this thread, because even though I've staffed and head staffed multiple times, I've never gotten the sense that people were that attached to the Shadow/First Tongue as a fundamental concept of werewolves.
I personally think it's possible to remove the Shadow component, and still be nwod werewolf. And in fact, be even more nwod werewolf than before, by focusing more strongly on co-equal themes. I was in fact, inspired by a mini-pdf that one of White Wolf's writers put out offering up just such an idea.
So I must admit, I'm a tiny bit taken aback by the breadth and solidarity of the sentiment, even to the point of someone earlier suggesting I use a different game system. As if the Shadow had anything to do fundamentally, with the nwod rules system, or if the rest of it wasn't perfectly suitable.
I also get the sense from this thread that people are putting on rose-tinted glasses, when it comes to various MUSHisms and instead treating it as if under ideal tabletop circumstances.. Stuff like Harmony, Renown and Loci have never been adequately handled on a mush. They sure as hell weren't on HM or the Reach.
In the future though, the Shadow hack will definitely be point #9 instead of #1. I think leading with it distracted people from the broader flow of making the game more streamlined and 'mushable', and not so much focus on the beautiful exceptions.
@Wizz Because four pages is such a lengthy and comprehensive discussion. It must not have been, if the creator still thinks that apps page is a good idea, or else it's a deliberate move to lessen interest in his game.
There's also an issue with each new pack app on a grid believing they have a god given right to their own loci in their own private building project, or else they're getting fucked. And then when they're gone, the loci is forgotten.
The best way to do loci, would have been like you said...already predetermined leylines that had to be claimed and protected on the grid. Not nestled away inside someone's home (how convenient!!). Loci should be in somewhat awkward places to perfectly control or contain. That's probably how they became loci in the first places.
It just seems so much cleaner to tie it into territory (how many grid spaces a pack can claim and patrol) and how large their numbers are.
I miss owod werewolf and I like Detroit as a setting, so was semi-tempted to make a character here. But the werewolf applications page is such pretentious bullshit that I couldn't bring myself to.
The Bone Gnawers section was especially stupid. Gee, being poor is hard? And it's harder for people of color? AND it's usually not a choice? Holy shit.
This tribe draws on stories about the poor and working-class. Regardless of race, being poor is hard, though it's harder for people of color, and stories about Bone Gnawers should reflect that. Most poor people aren't that way by choice, and stories about Bone Gnawers should reflect that too. Bone Gnawers are looked down upon by the other tribes for all the same reasons that poor people are looked down upon by the more affluent. Most of us have some amount of privilege--we all have computers, after all--and so it is of utmost importance that we all show some respect when telling these stories.
I'd think it'd be harder for whites, since people of color are used to being poor, amirite?
In all seriousness, I honestly don't know how anyone can take you (Supremes) seriously, after writing that. You don't care for my opinion, fine. But the ambition of any game should be to lure people in before making them close a browser tab at its sheer stupidity in the first five minutes.
@Alzie said:
Chapter 5, P 200. Spirits. All about spirits and how werewolves hunt them.
I didn't say it was entirely de-emphasized. Just that it wasn't emphasized as much as Forsaken 1.0. Clearly, we have differently nuanced barometers for judging such things.
I respect your opinion on it.
What did you think about the other eight points, purely from the perspective of introducing casual people to the game? (Those who will probably never own a White Wolf book, but will still play it).
@Wizz said:
Why have you been referring to 2.0 in the thread title, even before the edit, if you were talking about 1.0?
What?
I said the Shadow isn't as emphasized in Forsaken 2.0 as it is emphasized in Forsaken 1.0. I already described how. It was in response to a post someone else made, which mostly relied on Forsaken 1.0 assumptions.
Just out of idle curiosity, has anyone else in this thread even read the Forsaken 2.0 pdf, and compared it to the first book? Has anyone in this thread even storytold a game of werewolf? Aside from Glitch.
@ThatGuyThere said:
So things being done badly on a mush is only a reason to get rid of something if you don't like it?
You've nailed it.
@Thenomain said:
Follow up: I asked, he refused. Made my night. Tangental Ad Homenem Theatre comes to close. Thanks to everyone who enjoyed this, if anyone did.
To be fair, I didn't refuse outright. I gave an extremely reasonable precondition.
I guess this means we won't be friends, after all.
@ThatGuyThere said:
Ok now I have a question, you mentioned before one of the reason to get rid of the Shadow is that few people in your mind do it right.
But then you play up the theme of the primal horror of shape shifting which granted is in the books but I have never seen touched on a mush except for first change/ becoming plots. So wouldn't by your own arguments mean that should be cut as well?
Perhaps if things were streamlined a bit, one could sustain focus in areas closer to werewolf's theme. Shapeshifting, and the act of changing itself (often involuntary, frightening and violent) is supposedly as central to the werewolf experience as drinking blood is for a vampire, or avoiding sunlight.
@Ganymede said:
Frankly, I don't think any of your "flaws" are, in fact, "flaws." They appear to be aspects of the game that you think are either unnecessary or irrelevant to the style of game that you want to run. Unlike many others I can accept that, but like many others I probably won't be playing with you. I would probably find your setting/game/theme shallow.
I think you have badly misunderstood a few key points.
It's not my authority. I wrote the themes nearly verbatim from the book itself. I'm not pulling it out of my ass. If you don't like those themes...fine. But they're at least as equal in importance to the Shadow, which people here claim to love.
While you might find it emotionally cathartic to believe otherwise, I have nowhere claimed that any other way of interpreting the game is less acceptable or valid. I have only defended what I find acceptable and valid.
I've already acknowledged that the title could use improving. It was done in a slap dash fashion. I'm not perfect. There's no need to keep retreading it.
What I took issue with, was the barrage of comments that it was in violation to the 'spirit' (no pun intended) of the game. By way of response, I've fallen back on the authority of the original authors, as to which themes they gave pride of place, to show that is not the case. The people who seem to have the biggest trouble with this, are those that have pontificated the most, while later admitting 'they don't even like werewolf' and have probably never even read the theme section of the pdf.
In the end, werewolf is more than any one theme. It's a constellation of themes. The pseudo Native American cosmology aspect of it is just one theme, and it's the very last theme they introduced. It's just one layer of the setting.
So please, scale back some of the high and mighty tone about authority, or what rights I have to declare good fun or bad fun. I'm not making any such claims.
My only 'claim', is that Werewolf 2.0, stripped of the Shadow component, makes it even less like owod werewolf, and more in line with other nwod themes of horror and the human condition. That's why I found Theno's comment that it would be more combatty to be ludicrous, since the Shadow only exists to provide an owod-type avenue of mega battles against various monsters, like Claimed/Fomori, or beshilu/banes.
What makes a setting, game or theme 'shallow', isn't something so ridiculous as to whether or not the Shadow or spirits are involved, or what the tribes are called. It's how the story is told. I'm surprised you of all people, can't acknowledge this. My greatest beef with the Shadow is that it's handled in such a shallow manner by so many people, and of which there is really no way around without expecting an unrealistic level of familiarity with the subject matter from all players.
A story is hurt when not all of the players are on the same page in understanding its very various elements. Whatever idealized opinion people have of nwod werewolf, the fact is, most every nwod werewolf sphere has sucked, and been anything like what the original writers could have intended.
Totem spirit demands, loci maintenance, and gaining gifts from spirits has always been ignored and handwaved (95% of the time) so how central can they be?
In any case, I've made no secret of the fact that I've chosen to de-emphasize one aspect of Werewolf's theme, to better emphasize three or four others. That's all it really amounts to. And I haven't made any pretense otherwise. There's no need to make up straw men that hold some extreme argument that makes for an easy target, which I don't even adhere to.
At the end of the day, the only nwod werewolf sphere I've seen semi-competently run, was AQ's when Haunted Memories first started, and it almost killed him. I've never seen anyone since put in even half the effort to fully engage with and tackle the subject matter. There's clearly too much there for the average MUSHer to cope with or keep in their mind.
@Sunny said:
No, what you're asking for is not a courtesy. First of all, the thread in question is not mine, nor does it have anything to do with me save that I was participating in the discussion. That I disagree is not actually a personal attack, no matter how many times you say it is.
Removing what you're proposing to remove with this takes away a significant amount of what makes up the 'the Forsaken' part of the Werewolf game. I maintain that what you're looking to play is actually done better in another system. That's not an insult, it is an expression of my opinion. I would be perfectly happy with #4 and #5, because changing them doesn't change what I feel are core concepts of the game.
You've now said this, three or four times.
Unlike you, or most people in this thread, I've listed verbatim what the authors of Forsaken 2.0 write in the introduction as the most fundamental themes and most relevant media. Nowhere is pseudo Native American cosmology given pride of place. Not even in the media section.
In that sense, I think my fixes bring the game more firmly in line with the writer's own stated aims and themes, and ditches more of the owod cosmology. The flaw, is them lacking the courage to take their paring back of tribes and shadow more than halfway. I simply take it all the way. Auspices are nothing more than a chargen mechanic.
If you don't like that. That's fine. We're all entitled to our opinions, and currently you're quite invested in an owod game, so I'm not surprised you enjoy the themes.
It is however, a bit audacious, to claim I'm taking significantly away from Forsaken, when what I'm taking away, doesn't even appear to the original authors as a fundamental theme.
Also. I don't equate disagreement with personal attacks. I equate personal attacks with personal attacks, and it was made in the thread before you jumped on this one. You've now expressed your opinion (and apparently didn't follow your own advice by ignoring the post addressing it) four times. What else do you have to offer?
@Sunny said:
@crusader said:
@Sunny said:
@Arkandel said:
@crusader I don't think anyone here suggested your ideas are bad, or that a game based on them wouldn't/couldn't be fun.
Just that it's not nWoD, which I think is fair to say is accurate.
This. Exactly this.
You do realize, that I know the only reason you're here, is because of the level of hysteric offense you took, in the Detroit-related thread, where you were in the minority. You've already attacked me in another thread, when I wasn't even remotely engaged with you. But Ark echoed you there as well, and I guess you're repaying the favor.
Uhm. This wasn't an attack, actually. It was a compliment. Rage on, tiny zebra. I actually read all the threads on the site and was trying to figure out how to articulate pretty much what @Arkandel said. So I agreed. Because it does sound like good fun and something I would actually play. But it's not Forsaken to me and in my interpretations and for what I find fun in. It's just werewolf...and to play that, I really do think Cinematic Unisystem is a better idea.
Again. Please do me the courtesy I afforded you and Coin in the Detroit thread, and stop cluttering mine. You've already resorted to personal attacks out of the blue in another thread, so I don't really trust anything you have to say anyways. Clearly, we have very different ideas about werewolves.
It's funny how those that disagree with me seem to eventually preface their posts with 'I don't care about werewolf'. Okay, so why are you even here? How are you even invested in storytelling or running a werewolf sphere for the majority of people who aren't knowledgeable veterans?
The other cadre are those that have come directly from the Detroit thread. If your idea of a good theme and good lore, is how werewolf there is handled...then clearly, we have no constructive common ground. But since this is my thread, you can probably do me the courtesy that I did the Detroit thread, and tip my hat and fuck off.
Hardly anyone in this thread seems to understand Werewolf: The Forsaken theme.
People seem to have an idea of it in their head, but not what the writers themselves have actually written as the most important concepts. Let's open it up to the first page, to see what the writers claim is the foundational concepts of the splat:
That's the first paragraph of the introduction. The Shadow and spirits aren't even mentioned.
The Inspirational Media has only four selections. They are 'American Werewolf in London', 'Dog Soldiers', 'Ginger Snaps' and 'Murcheston:: The Wolf's Tale'.
Non-werewolf media is given as 'Boyz n the Hood', 'The Shield', and 'Sons of Anarchy'. Where is the Native American cosmology rip-off in that? I don't see 'Dances with Wolves' listed. Like it or not, the original theme and core design of Werewolf is closer to my vision than yours. If you'd ever read the pdf, you'd know that already.
The design flaw in Werewolf is setting out these themes and inspirations, and then doing a 180 into entirely different, owod-esque pseudo Native American cosmology that doesn't significantly impact the core werewolf game. This is a holdover from owod, just like the werewolf sex was a holdover taboo from metis.
In that sense, my 'fixes' do make Werewolf more New World of Darkness, and less Old World of Darkness.
If you disagree with me, fine. But don't just talk out of your ass. At least have an understanding of werewolf. At least have read the new 2.0 pdf so you have any basis for engagement. Don't just be here with an axe to grind for something I disagreed with you about in another thread. Because all I'm seeing here is a whole lot of condescending ignorance about the game they're professing to defend.
And again. If you don't care about werewolf. If you don't care about storytelling it, or running a game based on it in a more sensible online fashion, then why are you even here? All I've seen is a lot of trolling about the same ad nauseum issue, which isn't even correct to begin with, as the games own writers would have it. It's like all you can see is the old White Wolf paradigm of choosing your character like you would an MMO character, by slotting it into some Auspice/Tribe version of classes. That's not the core werewolf experience. That's just a character creation White Wolf trope.
So please, tell me some more how my ideas aren't true to Werewolf. If this post comes off as a bit harsh, then it's because it's hard to stay courteous when I've got three people from the Detroit thread trolling me.