How To Treat Your Players Right
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@TiredEwok said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
I am all for reporting people for shit behavior. I totally am. But there are ways to deal with it on the player's end that can, and in my opinion, should be done first. Outside of extreme cases, reporting a person to staff should only be done as a last resort, in my opinion. So-in-so is doing something you consider harassment? Block them via client after telling them to leave you alone and that you'll be blocking them, logging you doing so. If they circumvent it or find other ways to bother you... then report them. Provide the log of you asking them to leave you alone and notifying you'll be blocking them along with the other evidence.
ETA: Staff usually has enough on their plates as it is. FFS, please stop adding to their work load. Do what you can on your end first before involving them.
STRONGLY disagree. If someone literally can't respect a person's direct request not to engage with them OOCly, I absolutely want to know immediately. I think that methods of page-blocking just -- end up directing people to harass others. Like, if someone just annoys you/hits your buttons but not in a harmful sort of way and you want to gag their OOC chatter or whatnot, that's fine, that's not reportable, that's just a peeve. But I absolutely want to know if someone can't respect a simple boundary of "please don't page me." Because people who can't respect simple boundaries inevitably can't respect even more important ones. I want to deal with that early, not after a number of people have all page-blocked someone without saying anything so that that person can just continue to fester on the game bothering people.
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You're more than welcome to disagree with me, but I stand by what I said. The onus should be on the players to try and take care of things on their end first, save for the extreme cases I mentioned in my original statement. If things continue, or somehow escalate, then yes. Get staff involved. Fucking ask staff to burn the mother fucker into the ground until there's nothing left but ash. But FFS, please try to do what you (in general you) can to take care of things on your end first.
I need to also point out that every time I've tried to get staff on whatever game involved first I was asked 'well, did you try blocking them or asking them to stop', etc. Not every single person wants people's problems with other player's just up and dumped on their laps without some effort on the person's part first. And that does not make them shitty staffers. They just want people to try and resolve things on their own, first, like any adult should be able to do.
"Just leave me alone. I'm not myself. I'm falling apart, and I don't want you here." - ― Daniel Keyes, Flowers for Algernon
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@TiredEwok Sure, I'm not talking about people not making any effort in regards to asking someone to leave them alone, establishing boundaries, etc. But my strong disagreement would come down to "just block the person and wait for them to try and finagle around the block." So I guess my objection is more about "just use coded blocking tools if that person can't respect you asking them not to contact you." Because the simple fact of "person doesn't respect someone else asking them not to contact them" would be something I'd want to act on as a staffer.
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@TiredEwok Except that really, a line should be dropped to staff if things have gotten to the point that you're having to block someone from contacting you. You don't have to demand immediate response but at least an @mail saying 'hey, so-and-so has been harassing me to the point that I've blocked them from further communication. Just a heads up to put in the file, keep an eye on, etc.'
A LOT of creepers and harassers get away with harassment because nobody says anything. For all you know, you're the sixth person to block Creepy McCreepface. If staff needs a good reason to talk to someone, people blocking them from contact is a good point to start.
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I agree with @Roz and @Too-Old-For-This that Staff will want to know, even if you've blocked a harasser successfully. And yes, as @TiredEwok mentions, one of the first things Staff will likely ask if 'did you try blocking them or asking them to stop.' I know that I always ask that first, but I don't ask it because I wish the player had done something themselves before coming to me, I ask it because if the player has done this already, and the harasser has persisted, I'm going to take a lot harder and faster action than if the victim "just" went silent on the harasser, because it makes the case a lot more clear-cut, and removes any doubt that the harasser knew they were doing something they shouldn't have.
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Corporate HR guidelines are actually pretty solid for this.
- Ask the person to stop the behavior. If you feel it is important, record/log the conversation and report it to manager/HR
- Management/HR may intervene as they see fit, but recording it with them or that the conversation taking place sort of immediately protects you from retaliation.
- If it persists, log it and make it explicit that you have asked the behavior to stop and request staff/mgr intervention.
It's a text-based medium. You can log your request for them to stop and leave you alone. You can even be up front and say "You're making me uncomfortable, please stop paging me, and I would like to avoid non-group roleplay with you."
Ya don't need to let staff see the log, but I've done this before and dropped a line to staff that I've had the conversation and would be submitting log/formalizing the issue if it didn't stop.
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Points taken.
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I agree with the folks above that if you need to resort to page-blocking someone, there's a problem and I would prefer to know about it as staff.
However, I also agree with @TiredEwok that I think a fair number of issues can be solved just by players. There are genuine abusers and creepsters in the hobby, to be sure, but there are also quite a few needy folks who just get carried away, blending IC/OOC to an unhealthy degree and not even realizing it until somebody holds up a hand and checks them.
We're all adults here, and can take responsibility for enforcing our own boundaries. It's when you do that and someone still bothers you that I, as staff, want to be notified.
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I'd like to think a staffer can tell the difference between a personal conflict where two players should just leave each other alone and actual harassment. If they can't, the game has other problems.
Thing is, 9 times out of 10, the person who's being a creeper to you has been a creeper to other people before and will again. A lot of what they do with paging and ooc'ing weirdly at randos is a process of feeling out targets.
I have rarely felt like I can't deal with people who're making me uncomfortable. I'm pretty good at not responding or telling them to stop. If it rises to a level that skeeves me I'd sure as hell report them, though. Even if I deal with it on a personal level That Guy (of indeterminate gender) has maybe just moved on elsewhere. There's usually a pattern with these types and reports that may not result in a ban at least establish that.
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I adore you and most of the time, you are on point. But the reason we were upset in that situation was because it really did feel like you were protecting someone who should have been gone. If you were in the hogpit group, you could see the whole thread on DownWithOPP and understand, maybe, the depth of why.
If the main person he'd been targeting had felt safe enough to come forward... it'd have helped. A lot. But he'd made her feel like she couldn't (and even in the way he'd practically brag to me about her, well...).
But that's a large part of why I appreciate the tools on Ares. Someone can just enable the reporting in-game without worry of being unable to log because phone mu or whatever (like mudrammer crashes whenever I try to log).
That was why we'd get upset. It was that particular dude.
But the tools you have in place now should absolutely prevent anything similar in the future.Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@Auspice said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
If the main person he'd been targeting had felt safe enough to come forward... it'd have helped.
That's exactly the problem I'm talking about though. If all I'm getting is vague reports of "Bob is harassing Susie and Janey" and Susie won't tell me anything's wrong and Janey isn't even on the game any more, I'm not going to take action. I'm just not. It doesn't matter if the accused is my BFF or someone who's been on the game five minutes. It also probably would have helped if more folks had come to me directly with their concerns instead of just badmouthing me in the hog pit.
Folks can believe what they want about favoritism. My conscience is clear.
ETA: It might be worth noting that in this case, Susie was also a near and dear MU friend. If I were going to show favoritism based on friendship, it would have been to her. But that's not how I roll.
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@faraday With you 100%.
Without logs, and word of mouth tells you that a player is complaining about it, and then when you ask that player they do not corroborate the complaint, then the correct action is to do nothing.
The only way to be fair and ensure that you are making the right decision is to place the burden of proof onto the accuser. This is a text based hobby. Log that stuff.
It might upset people, sure, but I agree with how you handled it 100% and would appreciate that sort of staff candor and neutrality if someone were accusing me, guilty or not.
Delete the Hog Pit. It'll be fun.
I really don't understand He-Man -
@Ghost said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
The only way to be fair and ensure that you are making the right decision is to place the burden of proof onto the accuser. This is a text based hobby. Log that stuff.
Yes, but DownWithOPP's behavior had an effect on a lot of other people too.
We had a report of a bad player on Victorian Reverie through a third-party. I did nothing in the absence of a complaint from the aggrieved. The aggrieved simply left. Over a period of a couple of months, we lost half-a-dozen relatively-active players without an explanation. The third-party finally filed a complaint, and, when the bad player was confronted, she threw shade and accusations at the departed parties, and then at the third-party. I eventually determined that the behavior she was accused of in fact led to the departure of the aggrieved, but despite taking action the aggrieved would not return.
The damage had been done.
The burden of proof in a court of law is on the prosecution, but the responsibility of staff is to not only be an adjutant, but also an investigator. Investigators act on anonymous tips all the time because those tips can lead to the discovery of evidence of bad acts. And I think that staff need to adopt the position as investigators as much as being mindful of their role as judges.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
And I think that staff need to adopt the position as investigators as much as being mindful of their role as judges.
Agree 100%, but if people aren't willing to be candid with complaints or submit logs to corroborate their accusations, your ability to investigate is severely hampered. Staff needs to do its part, but players need to meet them halfway.
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@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
if you need to resort to page-blocking someone, there's a problem and I would prefer to know about it as staff
Except that in the human condition, the word "need" in social situations is highly subjective. If we all had the same understanding of what actions are actionable, we...wouldn't be humans, really.
I'm not being pedantic, either. This is not an infamous "It Depends". The fact that people will pagelock/gag/shun Susie for What Susie Said About Bob is a challenge that absolutely ties into this topic.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain Agreed.
I pagelock people far, far more frequently than I report them. Not because I'm a big strong man that can look after my own damned self, but because people are fucking annoying. Being someone that I find annoying isn't generally something I'll go through the tedium of dealing with staff about, but it could be that my annoying is another person's harassment that does need to be dealt with.
@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
If all I'm getting is vague reports of "Bob is harassing Susie and Janey" and Susie won't tell me anything's wrong and Janey isn't even on the game any more, I'm not going to take action.
"Hey dude, apparently you're being a dick. Stop being a dick." It's not difficult.
He/Him
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@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
If all I'm getting is vague reports of "Bob is harassing Susie and Janey" and Susie won't tell me anything's wrong and Janey isn't even on the game any more, I'm not going to take action.
"Hey dude, apparently you're being a dick. Stop being a dick." It's not difficult.
Me: "Are you being a dick to Susie and Janey? Because I heard you were and I don't like the sound of it if it's true."
Bob: "But! But!"
Me: "If it's not true, I apologize for stressing you out, but I have to look into this. I hope you understand."
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@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
"Hey dude, apparently you're being a dick. Stop being a dick." It's not difficult.
Uh huh. And when they say, "What, me? I'm not being a dick. What are you even talking about?" Then what?
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@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
"Hey dude, apparently you're being a dick. Stop being a dick." It's not difficult.
Uh huh. And when they say, "What, me? I'm not being a dick." Then what?
You add that last line that @Thenomain mentioned. It's often enough to know that one is being observed to stop dickish behaviour.
He/Him
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@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@faraday said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
@Tinuviel said in How To Treat Your Players Right:
"Hey dude, apparently you're being a dick. Stop being a dick." It's not difficult.
Uh huh. And when they say, "What, me? I'm not being a dick." Then what?
You add that last line that @Thenomain mentioned. It's often enough to know that one is being observed to stop dickish behaviour.
Or they out themselves by swiftly accusing the other party or saying shit like 'Well, they sure didn't mind when <super gross shit>'.
