The All-New Down With OPP Thread
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@Runescryer you care so little you have to tell me how little you care, got it.
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@Selira said in The All-New Down With OPP Thread:
Also, you realize no one flamed you because you were an MSB admin, right? They went on you because of explicitly what you were saying, why you were saying it, and how you were saying it.
Dunno. Given that the same people coming down on him for putting up a warning flag are the same ones on team 'ban anyone that even shows an ounce of problematic behavior to protect the rest of the community', I find this statement pretty sus, personally.
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@Selira Like you really care about reforming me or offering friendly advice. I'll drop my pretense if you drop yours. We can have a civil discussion or we can continue returning fire via sniping.
Ultimately, though, it's going to boil down to the fact that we have different POVs of events and philosophies; that aren't necessarily wrong and based on our own experiences. We're both convinced that each of our ways is 'correct' and fall into escalating tension and aggressions. We're both secure in our own echo chambers. I'm at least admitting to mine.
Everything is still too fresh and too raw on both sides of the split, IMO. Despite what you may think, I do take all criticism of myself seriously and adjust accordingly. I've been both applauded and dragged for how I tried to handle the situation.
So don't worry. You're not going to see a repeat of that particular sort of headline.
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@Derp Largely people came down on him after the log showed up showing how weird he was being as Tony and we saw that there was some serious IC/OOC conflict going on. At least, that was when my opinion turned from "huh, Runescryer's actually posting on BMD, neat, that's a good sign," to "oh god that's right this is why I dislike the guy." I can't speak for anyone else.
Also, you're really not one to talk about bans, anymore. Just saying.
@Runescryer I do prefer it when you drop your pretenses, yeah, because I don't think you're particularly good at keeping them up in the first place. I also did think that falsely accusing someone of being one particularly toxic predator was bad, which I've not changed on, while generally exposing someone's own creepiness is a good thing. I think that's been pretty consistent in my messaging. I'm glad to hear you'll be more thoughtful in how you title things in the future.
I don't know what pretenses you think I have past that. Yes, I identify more with the people on BMD than on here, but I post on both boards in similar ways and I sure haven't been lying about who my friends are, which you seem to constantly assume I'm like ... some agent of staff over there? I'm not.
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@Selira said in The All-New Down With OPP Thread:
Also, you're really not one to talk about bans, anymore. Just saying.
I sure can. I didn't ban anyone.
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@Derp I'm not doing this again, there already are multiple threads, you've said what you're going to say on the subject and I've said what I'm going to say. I think you're complicit, you think you've done no wrong, that's not changing.
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And yet you keep bringing it up, despite saying that you're not doing it again, and throwing shade at a dude for doing exactly what we tell people they should do just because the person in question is currently in the good graces of the people that normally call down exactly the kind of behavior. Which is kind of a hypocrisy.
Which was my point.
Runescryer did exactly what he should have done, raising a warning flag. Names were named when the person in question showed up to try to defend themselves of not being DWOPP but still made an ass of themselves.
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@Derp I still feel the accusation relevant, I'm not taking it back, but I'm not engaging in the full debate yet again. You're just going to have to accept that. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite.
Anyway:
As I've said, the receipts were bad.
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The receipts weren't bad. You just didn't like who they were talking about. Given that some of the people past-and-present on this board have gone into full-on fury-mode about exactly that kind of womanizing behavior invited or not, I still feel justified in calling it hypocrisy.
You're just going to have to accept that. -- Selira, MSB, 2022.
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@Derp Wait, who am I not liking? Because I don't like three of the four people I've heard of associated with this, the only exception being Jean's player, who seems fine and has clarified the IC womanizing behavior was purely IC and at her request. I did think it was clumsy and gross, and I wouldn't have responded to it, but it also wasn't a scene I was in.
The receipts were bad.
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@Selira said in The All-New Down With OPP Thread:
@Derp I'm not doing this again, there already are multiple threads, you've said what you're going to say on the subject and I've said what I'm going to say. I think you're complicit, you think you've done no wrong, that's not changing.
Which is the facade I mentioned. I don't believe that you came here in any sort of good faith discussion in mind. You're presenting 'I'm just concerned...' while stirring up sh!t.
Maybe you are here out of community concern, who knows. Like I said, the split was severe and there hasn't been time for healing. Maybe in the future, there's going to be a better effort at a detante, but now doesn't seem to be the time.
I pointed out my reasoning, you rejected that reasoning. Fine. You've said your peace and it's all been taken under advisement. I had the courtesy of disengaging from BMD when I saw this was becoming a battle over ideological principals. You guys are tired of all the secrecy, I get that. I was trying to accomidate the needs of the community as a whole against a person's right to privacy. Neither side is trusting of the other's motives at this point in time. I honestly hope that changes in time. My POV of you posting in a destructive capacity is every bit as founded and valid as your view that I enjoy 'Tee-Hee, I know a secret...', to use your phrasing. And, like pretty much everything in life, we're probably both a little wrong and a little right, here.
That's the difference I'm seeing, here. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong and can do better; and I can only show that I'm trying to do better through actions, which takes time. I haven't seen any admission from the others that they might have jumped to the wrong conclusions/taken the wrong actions. We can't read each others minds, so nobody truly knows the motivations of others; I'm open to admit that I could be in the wrong. Will you say that?
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@Runescryer You weren't wrong to conceal Lithium's identity before you had proof. That was responsible. Lithium outted themself, but that's not on you.
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@Runescryer I came in here to respond to a specific post and then you went off on me. I responded to that, but I stirred no shit on this board initially.
I'm not a big fan of "both sides are a little right and a little wrong" dialogue. If I see proof that I'm wrong, I try hard to change on a dime, though. I will say I'm comfortable in a fire, but I sure wasn't trying to light one here.
I'm also not taking sides, this one was never about the boards to me, it really, really, really wasn't. It's clear two parts of this conversation are happening across both, and that's fine by me.
I also don't expect to be believed, and I'm not sure I'd believe me. So, you know, whatever.
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@reimesu And my point has always been that investigations need to happen unhindered, and @ZombieGenesis did that. But investigations also take time, which gives a bad actor time to entrench their position more. Like I was talking with @Thenomain the other day on MU Haven, there have been cases of financial fraud committed by bad actors in such positions, in addition to the emotional abuse.
NOTE: THIS IS NOT AN ACCUSATION OR INSINUATION OF WRONGDOING BY ANYONE, JUST A STATEMENT ABOUT WHAT HAS OCCURRED IN THE HOBBY'S PAST.
Again, it's part of the fundamental split that happened. A group got tired of what they saw as the secrecy here and split off. It's going to take time to regain common trust between the two groups that the other POV is the 'wrong' side.
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@Selira said in The All-New Down With OPP Thread:
@Runescryer I came in here to respond to a specific post and then you went off on me. I responded to that, but I stirred no shit on this board initially.
I'm not a big fan of "both sides are a little right and a little wrong" dialogue. If I see proof that I'm wrong, I try hard to change on a dime, though. I will say I'm comfortable in a fire, but I sure wasn't trying to light one here.
I'm also not taking sides, this one was never about the boards to me, it really, really, really wasn't. It's clear two parts of this conversation are happening across both, and that's fine by me.
I also don't expect to be believed, and I'm not sure I'd believe me. So, you know, whatever.
See, I try to change too, as quickly as possible. But the fact remains that even if I change, even if you change, it's going to take time to establish that you're not following the same patterns again. There hasn't been time for that, yet.
As a question, this thread has gone far off the tracks in terms of the subject; should we close it and move the analysis and continuing convo to a new thread?
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I'm not sure why but for some reason I feel the need to jump in and hopefully clarify some points.
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It's been brought up that I suggested Tony contact Warren OOCly. I did. I even provided some suggest verbiage to try and keep things mellow, essentially just making sure everyone was OOCly on the same page. Tony took a much more aggressive approach to the OOC communication than I had hoped. In the end, I probably should not have made that suggestion. I should have acted as a middle man and first asked everyone to sit on things for 24 hours to let emotions cool.
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A lot has been made of RS coming and calling sounding the DWOPP alarm. Everyone has their opinion on that, here is mine; I wish he had waited till I had done my investigation before saying anything at all. Once I had verified that Warren was not DWOPP, the entire post would not have been necessary, IMO.
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A lot has also been made over the Jean/Warren log. I just want to state that Warren was not banned over that log. The log was brought to my attention, I spoke with Jean at length about it, and she made it very clear that she had no problem with Warren or the scene and that I should not hold that scene against him. So I did not.
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I've hard call for receipts for the bans with some folk saying they need or deserve them. I won't lie, I've only recently read stuff from BMD so some(or most or all) may have come from there but it's a sentiment that's been put out into the universe at any rate. I disagree. People came to me with thoughts and concerns, I did my own investigation, I made my own decisions. Sharing anything that went on behind the scenes helps nothing. It's not going to change anyone's opinions and it is just going to potentially make some people uncomfortable. Sharing these things feeds the drama but I have almost never seen it actually help the situation.
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I've read some "we know why X or Y was banned". I want to assure you that you do not. No one was banned for any single reason and none of those reasons have been shared openly. Two of those people were banned blindly because I had just had enough and wanted them done and gone. I briefly shared the reason with the third because of our history together and I felt I at least owed them that.
Could some of the things that went down been handled better? Sure. It's also easy to say that now and it's easy to say that if you weren't involved. I had been dealing with some of these issues for weeks. In the final week leading up to the 3 bannings it was a daily thing. It got to the point where I didn't want to log onto my own game because I knew I was going to have several messages about Player X or Player Y.
Do I regret the bannings? I do not. It sucks to say because two of the people involved I think are actually decent people and I know I'll miss their friendship. Unfortunately, these were steps I felt I needed to take. In the end I think the game is stronger for it.
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@Runescryer I say this with as little bitchiness as I can: I'm not sure much more needs to be said about conflict between us, and there's still room in this thread for info and discussion about this situation, so I'm cool just leaving it here.
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@Selira said in The All-New Down With OPP Thread:
@Runescryer I say this with as little bitchiness as I can: I'm not sure much more needs to be said about conflict between us, and there's still room in this thread for info and discussion about this situation, so I'm cool just leaving it here.
That's fine. I was just putting it out there for consideration by everyone.
Also, I should have indicated 'we' rather than 'you'; I didn't mean to imply that I was singling you out there in the 'it takes time to show you're not following the same patterns' comment.
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I appreciate you providing the explanation that you did not have to, or want to, provide.
I know everyone involved. I have known them for a while. I’m just sad.
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@ZombieGenesis Again, I apologize for my part in adding to the miscommunications and stress. Like i said, I'll be doing things differently in the future.
