What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.

[Arkandel]

@tinuviel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

And if it's not going to be the same thing, why use any of the same conventions?

Telnet isn't a convention, it is a protocol. It comes with limitations - not only due to its age but also because what we're asking it to provide isn't part of what it was meant for.

What I'm looking for is the optimal platform to play text-based roleplaying games. Being unable to use enrich text or anything above the very simplest UIs isn't in any way making that any better.

As for attracting new players allow me a very simple question. Please answer it honestly. We all know newcomers can stick around despite a traditional MU*'s trappings; can you imagine many stick around because of them?

[Kumakun]

@tinuviel Totally didn't mean any offense, sorry if I came off that way! I think a lot of the conventions of the medium are time tested and solid, but it lacks modern interactions that have become pretty web/social standard that I think would attract a new audience to add to the preexisting community and culture. Who I'm not after, are the telnet or die crowd, I doubt they would leave 1st Gen server technologies anyways.

[faraday]

@arkandel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

Please answer it honestly. We all know newcomers can stick around despite a traditional MU*'s trappings; can you imagine many stick around because of them?

None. And far more are driven away by them.

But the simple, inescapable fact is that the overwhelming majority of veteran MU players will not switch to a new client. I've still got people reporting Ares issues with SimpleMU for pete's sake, and that hasn't been supported in, like, a decade.

So for all my "What defines a MU" philosophizing -- unless you want to make a game for only newcomers, you're stuck with what we've got.

[Tinuviel]

@arkandel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

Telnet isn't a convention, it is a protocol

Wasn't actually talking about telnet in this instance, I expanded my scope a bit to include culture which is to what I was referring. A culture of rules and 'standards' established due, at least in part, to the nature of telnet's limitations.

If you want to make something specifically for new people, should you really base it off of a tired, old, pre-existing culture's ideas of the way things should be done?

@faraday said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

veteran MU players will not switch to a new client

I'd say that it's less that we absolutely will not, more that we absolutely don't see the need. Speaking for myself, at the very least.

@arkandel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

As for attracting new players allow me a very simple question.

I honestly don't care about attracting new players all that much. We are what we are because of what we do, if you want to do it too then join in. Else, this might not be the group for you.

[Arkandel]

@tinuviel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

We are what we are because of what we do, if you want to do it too then join in. Else, this might not be the group for you.

I know I'm not here because I romanticize being part of a dying hobby with a diminishing population.

I believe a platform - or the tools to make one - will emerge that can fuel the style of gameplay that no other medium can offer; real-time multi-player text-based role playing in a persistent world.

[faraday]

@tinuviel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

I'd say that it's less that we absolutely will not, more that we absolutely don't see the need. Speaking for myself, at the very least.

If I made a "MUSH" that could only be played via the web, would you even give it a look? Or would you dismiss it as some variant of PBP forum RP that isn't your thing?

If you would try it out, then you're in the minority (based on polls here on MSB and my own personal surveys and feedback via Ares). That's not a criticism, btw. That's just reality.

[Derp]

@tinuviel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

I'd say that it's less that we absolutely will not, more that we absolutely don't see the need. Speaking for myself, at the very least.

I think that a large part of this is that there are limited options available, and they all frankly do just about the same thing. There really isn't a need for a client that does something radically different right now, but those times are approaching.

The splittable windows thing that someone put up a screenshot for on Evennia, for instance. Imagine how nice it would be to not have to worry about Spawn code and just toss all of that off into a COMM window on the same screen, just over to the side. None of the current MU clients do that.***

***I think I once saw a game that had taken MUSHClient and retooled it in all kinds of crazy ways to serve their own purposes but I cannot for the life of me remember what it was, so it doesn't count.

[Tinuviel]

@arkandel Is it dying because it's old, or because there are so many other distractions for people now that nobody puts in the effort to join?

One makes a thing like a MU, in spirit if not in body, specifically with the intention of drawing people from outside the realm we live in now, not appealing to those people already within the text-based-real-time-persistant-role-playing community... Why would they use that rather than another roleplaying service, like Roll20 or whatever else?

Why would they learn this new thing, when there are easier things out there to get into? What makes the new thing any more appealing a prospect to learn than the present state of affairs? What we have is simple. Inelegant, maybe, but it's relatively simple. Adding all the whizz-bang features you want adds complexity, which adds difficulty.

@faraday said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

@tinuviel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

I'd say that it's less that we absolutely will not, more that we absolutely don't see the need. Speaking for myself, at the very least.

If I made a "MUSH" that could only be played via the web, would you even give it a look? Or would you dismiss it as some variant of PBP forum RP that isn't your thing?

If you would try it out, then you're in the minority (based on polls here on MSB and my own personal surveys and feedback via Ares). That's not a criticism, btw. That's just reality.

I used to regularly play forum RP. I like the way things are now, however, and haven't found a compelling argument or benefit to change what I know to something entirely new.

ETA: I'm not at all intending to shout down your plans or ideas. Simply making especially sure that these things are thought about. I probably won't jump onboard a new thing, but that's no reason to not make it.

[faraday]

@tinuviel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

haven't found a compelling argument or benefit to change what I know to something entirely new.

That wasn't what I was asking though. I was asking, specifically, if I (or someone) opened up a new MUSH that looked cool but you couldn't use your usual client, you could only use a web browser or some other new-fangled client - would you try it?

The overwhelming response to that question in polls is "no". That pretty much dooms any attempts to do something radically new unless you want to say "screw you veterans". But if you do that... who exactly is going to run and play on these hypothetical newfangled games?

[Arkandel]

@faraday I don't mean to sound condescending, but I will anyway.

People don't know what they want until you show it to them.

[Tinuviel]

@faraday said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

I was asking, specifically, if I (or someone) opened up a new MUSH that looked cool but you couldn't use your usual client, you could only use a web browser or some other new-fangled client - would you try it?

No. I avoid web interfaces for MU*s. I open a video game to play a video game, I open a web browser to browse the web, I open a MU client to MU. Simples. Until I'm shown a reason to switch, I won't.

@arkandel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

People don't know what they want until you show it to them.

People want what's familiar. New things are viewed skeptically and critically until they can be shown to be 'better' than what already exists. So it's not a matter of showing off the new shiny, you've also got to show off why it's better as well.

[faraday]

@arkandel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

People don't know what they want until you show it to them.

Many people know what they don't want, though. Also, I have shown it to them. But hey - if somebody wants to try it, I sincerely wish them luck. I just figured I'd share 6+ years of consistent feedback that led me to maintain the old-school-client compatibility in Ares.

[Arkandel]

@tinuviel Silent films were once very familiar to their audience.

I'm also old enough to remember when cellphones came out ("what for? Just in case my car breaks down?"). Then when smartphones came out ("I prefer physical keyboards").

Technology changes what we like by giving us what we like more.

[Tinuviel]

@arkandel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

Technology changes what we like by giving us what we like more.

Yeah. And so far, we haven't seen something we liked more. Not enough to change, as @faraday has said.

Oh, wait. No. We have.
We have video games now. We do those.

[faraday]

@tinuviel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

Not enough to change, as @faraday has said.

I think that change happens slowly. I mean, every so often you get the lightning bolt, but most of the time it's gradual. We didn't go from touchtone phones to "everybody has an iPhone in their pocket and home phones are pretty much defunct" overnight, right? You convince the early adopters first, then they spread the word, and so on and so forth until eventually, hopefully, you hit a tipping point. (There's an awesome TED Talk on this idea, btw.)

But the thing is - MUSHing is a community-driven hobby. You can't convince the early adopters to adopt if they can't play with their friends. And their friends, not being early adopters themselves, are still going to be using Potato and Atlantis and (sob) SimpleMU.

[Derp]

@arkandel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

I prefer physical keyboards

FWIW, I my favorite smartphone was one that Optimus Zip where the cover slid over to reveal a physical keyboard on. So many less typos.

[Tinuviel]

@faraday said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

You can't convince the early adopters to adopt if they can't play with their friends.

This is why so many social networking ideas fail.
And honestly this is all just a social network with other stuff on top.

[Tat]

@tinuviel said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

I'd say that it's less that we absolutely will not, more that we absolutely don't see the need. Speaking for myself, at the very least.

As the person reporting issues with SimpleMU, it's actually because I don't have a good option. There's no modern client on PCs that handles spawns nicely, to my knowledge (and good lord if there is one, please point me to it).

Please, get me away from this thing. I'd love to upgrade. I'd love to go telnet-free.

I admit that I do still want a client, though. I really like having a separate program for my RP so it doesn't get lost in the clutter. But for a good enough system, I'd deal.

[Derp]

@tat said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

There's no modern client on PCs that handles spawns nicely, to my knowledge (and good lord if there is one, please point me to it).

I guess this depends on what you mean by 'nicely'. Potato handles spawns just fine.

[faraday]

@derp said in What's out there now and what has been attempted? A codebase discussion.:

I guess this depends on what you mean by 'nicely'.

From talking to several SimpleMU users, the definition of "nicely" is "How SimpleMU does it" Which is not the same way Potato does it, apparently.

And to @Tat and the other SimpleMU users, because when I had a Windows machine I held onto my precious SimpleMU.exe long after onlineroleplay.com went away. So I get it.

My main point is - Developers ignore backwards compatibility at their own peril. (Speaking of which, I'm gonna make the smartquotes thingy we talked about a configurable option.)