Incentives

[Miss Demeanor]

@Olsson And that gratification HAS to come in the form of xp? Your character, which has zero to do with the plots that you are running, should be allowed to become more powerful simply because you as a player have the ability to tell a good story?

@Derp Those NPC's are part of a specific plot being run and will go away once the plot is completed, not the ST's personal character that has zero to do with the plots you're ST'ing and will remain long after the plot is finished.

[Bobotron]

@Roz
It's for those reasons that I'm also a fan of XP caps.

[Derp]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

@Derp Those NPC's are part of a specific plot being run and will go away once the plot is completed, not the ST's personal character that has zero to do with the plots you're ST'ing and will remain long after the plot is finished.

The specific plot being run is the overall plot of the game you're currently playing. So yes, those characters will go away when the plot ends, i.e., when that game dies.

[Wretched]

@Derp said:

@Miss-Demeanor said:

The difference being that you can generally ST more scenes in a day than you can play in plots. You'll have people make up actual ST bits that they'll drop into RP rooms to ST scenes, in addition to their character bit, AND an alt character bit... and all that xp will go to one character. As its been mentioned, people will ST 3-4 scenes a day while the player will generally only be in MAYBE one PRP per day.

But here, lets turn this around for a second. Why should your CHARACTER advance in ability and power for something YOU did as a player that had absolutely nothing to do with your character? The entire system is built around getting xp for PLAYING a character. Not for STing. There is nothing in the books that mention the ST/DM/GM getting xp for running the plot. So why should you?

Actually, the books specifically mention that the ST can apply beats to NPCs and have them grow, too. It's an option. It seems like this is the option that MU's are using with PrPs, only its the ST's PC. So quite untrue.

@Wretched said:

Xp being tied strongly to running Plots is in itself what bothers me.

Then I think you may be in the wrong genre, as stated above. You could do a game totally about character interaction, if you wanted. There's nothing wrong with that. But the storytelling system is pretty much all about the plots. That takes plot-runners. Whether you're the ST or a PC should be irrelevant, you should benefit from furthering the goals of the game.

I've been Muing since 1998. in only the more recent years has Xp for PRP's been a significant thing. I could Rp 14 hours a day and have a lot of meaningful character developing Rp, Ic manipulating and plotting and get less Xp than someone who ran a 2 hour gobbo market thing to get their buddie a magic sword. Is it the type of Rp one has then the problem? Is one kind of Rp worth less than others?

[Olsson]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

@Olsson And that gratification HAS to come in the form of xp? Your character, which has zero to do with the plots that you are running, should be allowed to become more powerful simply because you as a player have the ability to tell a good story?

What else would it come in form of? Aren't that many things you can reward them with. Items? Bonuses? Authority?

[Derp]

@Wretched said:

I've been Muing since 1998. in only the more recent years has Xp for PRP's been a significant thing. I could Rp 14 hours a day and have a lot of meaningful character developing Rp, Ic manipulating and plotting and get less Xp than someone who ran a 2 hour gobbo market thing to get their buddie a magic sword. Is it the type of Rp one has then the problem? Is one kind of Rp worth less than others?

Aside from just the time that's passed when we can compare games and gaming styles (1998 being the year we were blessed with games like Resident Evil 2 and Parasite Eve, for comparison on how things change), there is some brilliance in the beats system. Aspirations are now a thing. Taking dramatic failures, engaging in social combat, etc, is also a thing, at least if we're talking about WOD games, and I think those are the ones that currently reward plotrunners. So there's no reason that you can't engage in whatever kind of storytelling you feel comfortable with. It doesn't have to come down to punchy combat. You can get the same type of xp for -telling stories-. What I'm hearing is that you don't want to tell stories at all, which makes me wonder why you're playing on a game where the entire point is to -tell stories-, either that of your own personal character or how the world interacts with others.

It's not about the type of RP, it's about how you choose to engage on the game.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Olsson Wasn't the whole point of ST'ing that someone ENJOYED telling the stories? You don't gain anything for ST'ing an online TT, why should you gain it for ST'ing in a MU*?

[Wretched]

@Derp said:

@Wretched said: What I'm hearing is that you don't want to tell stories at all, which makes me wonder why you're playing on a game where the entire point is to -tell stories-, either that of your own personal character or how the world interacts with others.

What?

[ThatGuyThere]

Remember the maxim that has been quoted her already you get what you reward.
Rewards for running plots will also get you some bare minimum plots. I remember one I went to didn't know anyone in it but signed up for it.
Get there and the opening pose is we all see a woman running from some zombies then combat commenced. No character interaction no story just here is something throw dice at it. I know some people rail against non-events like pizza parties, but that was just as much of a non-event. Sure it had combat but there was never a sense our chars were threatened and certainly no attempt to make the scene any more then a dice fest. Now such scenes are fine if that is what you want but then the same can be said for the pizza parties.
My point is be very careful how you structure the reward, and what exactly you choose to reward, because while many will follow the spirit and take the incentive and provide stories just as many will do the minimum to get the carrot.

[Arkandel]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

@Olsson And that gratification HAS to come in the form of xp?

What's the alternative? It's not a rhetorical question - how else do we get more Storytellers to throw plot? It scales very well (one ST can create RP for 4+ people) and yet there is rarely enough supply to meet demand.

Your character, which has zero to do with the plots that you are running, should be allowed to become more powerful simply because you as a player have the ability to tell a good story?

To be fair, players who have the ability to tell good stories get all sorts of perks even when they don't run PrPs.

I don't mean to repeat myself either but I haven't seen an answer to this yet (and please point it out to me otherwise); XP from Beats in nWoD 2.0 is by far the superior method to advance. A player who gets himself involved in ongoing affairs more than bar RP can make a true killing way faster and easier than having to be personally responsible for hours' worth of plot.

Is that also a problem? Because I see it as a feature.

[Derp]

@Arkandel said:

I don't mean to repeat myself either but I haven't seen an answer to this yet (and please point it out to me otherwise); XP from Beats in nWoD 2.0 is by far the superior method to advance. A player who gets himself involved in ongoing affairs more than bar RP can make a true killing way faster and easier than having to be personally responsible for hours' worth of plot.

Is that also a problem? Because I see it as a feature.

This.

[Thisnameistaken]

@Derp said:

@Sunny said:

@icanbeyourmuse said:

I'm in the party that players shouldn't be able to advance their chars for doing things for others. It is mildly annoying because they are getting oodles of XP when it doesn't have to do with their char.

It's a fair perspective. How do you propose to encourage a game-culture of doing things for other people, if you're not interested in incentives?

It's also not exactly unreasonable. Other people can get xp for STing too. It's not like it's restricted to one person. And the person STing is taking time out that they could otherwise be using to be in a scene themselves. So it's not an unfair system.

To me, this always sounds like ' I wan the same thing but I don't wanna have to do the other thing' which may or may not be true, mind. It's just how it always ends up sounding.

TR's PrP policy where players and STers received the same amount for PrPs is a good example. It encouraged people to sit around and wait for other people to run plots, which take a lot more effort than simply being in the a scene, and never give anything back.

I fully support a small incentive simply because it /is/ a lot of work to run things. That said, I don't think people should necessarily get perks from simply /attending/.

[Sunny]

Character XP
     Limited to specific character
     Flat rate awarded 1xp/week; the total of this will be tallied and every starting character will get the flat rate XP on top of their typical starting build points. This XP goes into their pool and can be used immediately, even before they go IC.
      Capped at 4/week (including flat gain)
     Ways to Earn:
          Goal -- See GMC for suggestions on how to write this up
          Failure
               Dramatic Failure (move failed roll to dramatically failed roll)
               Major Setback (major major loss, define this, earn 3 XP with this one, capping them for the week)
          Archetype
          Personal Story Completion
          Expend 2 player points
          Character Growth
          Character Learned
          Experienced major gain or loss
          Character reduced to disabled (0 health)
          Character makes significant choice
          Character confronts significant villain/enemy and they escape
     Spent-on-character cap of 425 Experience (possibly to increase yearly after 2 years, with adjustments to starting XP, game power level, and trade-in for all current unspent XP)
     Can be transferred to alts at 4:1 loss ratio (may not spend flat XP in this way)
     On-screen character death (not including suicide) will transfer unspent experience to a new character directly
          Intent: Giving non-dying characters closure 

**Player Points**
     Attached to the player (shared pool between characters)
     Weekly cap of 2, no total cap
     Earned by:
          Running Events
          Running PRPs
          Scene playing NPC from the background of another player's character
          Scene running slice of life for another player's character
          Writing article for IC News / OOC Wiki
          Playing with a new character their first week
          Create pre-gen/roster character fully (2 points)
          Newbie Help
          Narrating a scene
          Playing a recycled library/roster character for another player (2 points)
          Other as proposed (this list to grow as time passes)
          Building
     Traded 2:1 for Character Experience
     Traded 1:1 for Fate points (yes, these are lost weekly) to a cap of 10
     Traded for respec


**Fate Points**
     Remove/Refresh 12AM Monday; humans to 7, everyone else to 4
     Earned via invoking of complications or purchased using player points (purchased ones disappear as well)
          Quotable quotes
          Heroic Acts
          Bad things happen to good people
          Assisting someone else with tragedy
          Character confronts significant villain and they escape
     List additional ways to use (see Cinematic Unisystem's Drama Points)
          Heroic Feat
          I Think I'm Okay
          Plot Twist
               Edit Scene (Mutants Masterminds)
               Inspiration
          Instant Counter
          Righteous Fury
          Back from the dead
          Recover
     Max pool of 10 for any given scene (can't use more period)

Sorry about using that thing for this, but I couldn't get it to format right otherwise without more work than I'm willing to do. This is so totally just a work-in-progress, but I think it provides a framework for an incentive system that encourages what I want to encourage.

[Rook]

So, on Umbral Shards, I have been heavily leaning towards trying something new/shitty/awesome/novel/weird. The entire playstyle that I am going for on the game will be players vs NPCs/Meanies/Monsters, so that the PCs are mostly cooperative. This will require STs running scenes or at least adjudicating them, so I still have a lot of work to do both in the system and in support code to make things easier to resolve via rolls so that the players and ST can focus on the story.

My crazy idea is this: Global XP earning.

What that means is, the players as a whole earn XP into a global pool for the week. Stories that are ran, votes for amazing RP, votes for amazing STing, whatever other earning qualifiers we throw in (the initial playerbase is going to get a large say in guidance on how we end up forging forward with the pathfinding, here).... all pool their XP into a game-wide pool. I do think that perhaps amazing RP votes, personal PC sacrifice for the Greater Good, and other such 'above and beyond' singular events might earn PERSONAL XP that this player gets to keep. But I am undecided on that yet.

The players that were active* that week will get a share of that global XP to put toward their character's advancement (which I plan to do differently, too) (I know, I'm fucking everything up). There will be various limitations on caps, so forth, but this is the general idea.

So the Incentive here is: Activity. That everyone can glom onto, share in, reap the rewards of. THe more activity, the more XP in the pool, the more everyone gets. 'So get out and RP' is the message that the system is intended to push.

Okay, that's my idea for my small niche game. I'm curious to hear the things I'm not seeing or missing.

*Active means active, IC participation in any capacity: playing, supporting, STing or even developing game material. If you contributed, you get a share.

[ThatGuyThere]

Gany has discussed something similar in the past with player activity raising xp caps, both could work after all in most table top I have seen players get a uniform award of xp as a group. True mushes are a similar but not the same beast. I would be very interested to see how this played out.

[Sunny]

@Rook

I think it's a great idea for you to explore further, and better get a handle on the cons as well as the benefits. Some things to think about:

What behavior would this policy discourage?

What happens if the playerbase doesn't buy in?

What other behaviors are important to you to encourage?

Does this system accomplish encouraging those behaviors as well, or are you willing to sacrifice them for the stated goal?

[lordbelh]

STing means penalizing your own character. Having something to make up for that seems perfectly legit to me. You don't want your STs to be losing out becase they're dedicating time to make other people's fun.

[3543thrh67]

Just to help for where I'm coming from for my place...

We're not going to have XP. Earning dots/levels/whatever for skill ups and the likes will be done with a sport of tier system. Everyone will get X number of training points a week to put towards the next level of their skill/attribute/whatever. @Rook said it is like EVE when I was explaining to him on what I wanted. He can probably explain it better than me. My co-admin and I were discussing how to make it work and it turned to discussion on incentives.

Also, for offering XP and the likes.. it always feels like you're bribing people to like your theme to me. Maybe it's because I am from a world where it is not WoD and such.

BUT a more OOC recommendation that doesn't overly give people leaps and bounds over others is good. Firan had their Community Points.. which was a pain in the ass to earn but I think they had the right idea. I just wouldn't require any sort of explaination and have it automatically given. I'll probably discuss it with my coder and my co-admin t see what they think of that.

[Arkandel]

@icanbeyourmuse said:

Everyone will get X number of training points a week to put towards the next level of their skill/attribute/whatever.

Sure, that solves the problem of forcing a ST to choose between either advancing their character (by playing) or running a plot (in which their PC, by definition, can't be part of). So that's a good approach in general in that regard.

You still might or not run into the separate titular problem of incentivizing PrP running, though. As mentioned earlier in the thread some Storytellers will simply run them because they want to, but some won't - it's a lot of work, after all.

I think social recognition could work if someone gets it right, since that's a driving force for many players in our hobby.

Additional non-XP related incentives could also include giving them access to things that aren't openly available for purchase otherwise. One of the suggestions I had given for the TR back in the day was to let PrPs 'unlock' spends which otherwise required meeting other criteria - so for example instead of having to find a ST to run a scene for you to buy a magic item, get a rare Legacy, raise Renown etc, you could run scenes for others.

Just some ideas.

[3543thrh67]

We're not looking to have anyone justify anything except getting a magical item. And even then it doesn't even have to be a scene unless they want it too.

For reference: https://sites.google.com/site/vahlahcity/theme/magic/item-plots

The social part, I've still been pondering. It could be used to shoulder tap players that are highly involved in helping expand things. And for that I might have an option of things the 'kudos' is for. Like..

+cheer Thirstan=Plot

It would generate a +job or store on an object with a note of

Thirstan got a Cheer for running a plot.

Or along those lines. Maybe not that exactly but, you get the idea?

Re STing.. I /might/ see about having a list of mini-plots that tie into the current main plot that STers can run/suggest changes too so there is less work on them. And keep some vague ones in case they want to have details of their own.

Just to note.. I'm not a huge fan of the PRP thing. BUT I also don't want to have staff over worked. this might be because I've never been much of a WoD fan.