Something Completely Different
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I don't know my reputation and if it has any worth. I've been pretty silent this last year and have greatly reduced the amount of time I actually RP in Mu* format. That said, from my perspective I just see this as continuous dog piling on Admin like somethings going to change. The will of the people looks like an attempted bullying of the few. from my perspective.
I disagree with @Derp's sentiments often enough, I don't like everything I've seen from them. @Ganymede's doesn't agree either, we've all seen them go back and forth themselves in disagreement (those of us reading all the threads have seen them quip at each other). I respect Gany's decision to bring in a voice of opposition to moderate in fairness (akin to presidents bringing in bi-partisan folks to their cabinets for broader voice).
Some of the banned folks I know, some I only know from here.
What I see is the attempted voice to shut down the mod's decisions in what has the appearance of several cliques trying to get their way; again I know some of the folks banned and I know its not a self aware clique just the appearance of such. In all honestly, some of this group this is the exact same group that got a prior admin ousted (I don't recall if they stepped down or if it was discussed with other admin to quill the dog pile). I know that person completely left the Mu* part of their RP hobby after that a few years back. I know they're doing good now avoiding the Mu* world.
However, agree/disagree with someone, it was a dog pile then and it is an attempted dog pile now and it gives the perception of a clique, and I mean it in a negative connotation. I don't like what Derp says half the time, but I don't see them maliciously going after folks to have them banned or using their 'authority' for some undo persuasion or favors or something else untoward. I respect the current bans (possibly temporary) to get a hand on the initial dumpster fire, and I see the continued support for the banned group as just throwing fuel into the fire but serving little other purpose aside from making the fire bigger.
I respect the decisions made by moderators leading up to this point. I respect what Gany has said, they'll review it when @mietze returns for some clarity. Gany has been nothing but honest from all I have seen. But this continued pouring of gasoline into the dumpster fire is really painting more of this impression of the clique. I see people speaking up against it in quiet voices worried of being banned (in posts that seem nothing like the initial posts and do not warrant banning) -- but they've already said they'd review it. I still see some of the initial bans as part of the problem that drove a prior moderator out of this aspect (Mu*ing) of the hobby, and it has the perception doing the same again.
I trust Gany to do as they said, review when things simmer down. Can we get there without more gas going into the fire?
I'm just a surge protector doing my job, sir.
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it’s super funny because multiple people were told in DMs that Derp would be removed as an admin and that was just a lie and now he’s functionally running everything and crafted a rule that is basically just “don’t be mean to Derp, he’s just a little guy, c’mon”
and, like
for who? like who is this for anymore
this place is dead
everybody who actually posted is banned or said “wow, this is gross, bye” and even if those bans are retracted why would anybody come back when they’ve seen firsthand an admin policy based on narcissistic injury and gaslighting
none of this silent majority apparently intimidated by the mean girls appears interested in doing anything
so congratulations i guess I’m sure three admins and four posters will definitely make a vibrant community
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@lotherio The new "code of conduct" appears to be a result of review. It appears to be a result of review that fails to address several of the issues, continues to insist on all complaints being in private, and doubles down on the initial flawed ban (while appearing to say you can just block people you don't want to talk to -- but you still can't block Derp, which was high on the list of reasons I had concerns about the initial elevation).
It is not reasonable to demand silence while continuing to speak.
I think you need to look into the definition of your terms. For example, dictionary citations:
Bully (verb form): "seek to harm, intimidate, or coerce (someone perceived as vulnerable)."
You can't bully someone who is in authority over you.
Clique (noun): a small group of people, with shared interests or other features in common, who spend time together and do not readily allow others to join them.
The exclusivity is part of the definition.
I have been holding my tongue here because that has been the request. I have little interest in continuing to participate in a version of this community that does not course correct, but I have continued to wait and observe. What I have observed so far has not heartened me.
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@saosmash said in Something Completely Different:
You can't bully someone who is in authority over you.
I'd disagree, again, the last admin they ran off was bullied. They not only left MSB, they left MU*'ing all together.
Clique (noun): a small group of people, with shared interests or other features in common, who spend time together and do not readily allow others to join them.
Exactly, a number of the banned and others do talk on discord. The discord as pointed out in other threads is by invite only. Curious?
ETA: Again as I said above, this is the perception to neutral parties. At the stake of whatever reputation I may have had, I'm saying its not looking good from a third party perspective (realizing some folks I respect, included you, will not like what I'm saying). I pointed out I Derp is not a friend, we've disagreed, they've argued often enough with Gany. But this does look like a dog pile.
I'm just a surge protector doing my job, sir.
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@saosmash said in Something Completely Different:
I think you need to look into the definition of your terms. For example, dictionary citations:
Bully (verb form): "seek to harm, intimidate, or coerce (someone perceived as vulnerable)."
You can't bully someone who is in authority over you.
I'm glad you brought this up, because it has slightly changed my stance on the matter by reminding me of a principle I am trying to live by despite it not coming naturally to me: that understanding isn't achieved by relying on dictionary definitions, but rather by trying to empathize with what motivates the other person to say something at all.
Is it possible to bully someone who has absolute, incontestable authority over you? I don't think it is.
Is it possible for someone who has absolute, incontestable authority over you to feel bullied by you because what you have said or done hurts them regardless of their absolute, incontestable authority over you? Yes. And in that case, I don't think quibbling over definitions is more helpful than addressing the feeling of hurt that exist on both sides.
But that's the whole problem here, isn't it? I've no idea how any of our overlords are currently feeling because they won't talk about it, so any emotion I assign to them is pure projection. Likewise, I can't talk to them about my feelings because I can't trust that if I do, it won't be declared a violation of the spirit of the law rather than the letter of it. I am more than half convinced that this is my final post on this forum because it will provoke the mods to feel defensive, which they will decide means my intent is to attack and is therefore a bannable offense. Is that assumption empathy on my part or projection? Hell if I know.
I don't know. I thought I had a point when I started writing this post, maybe something about how it would be really helpful if everyone could set aside their defensiveness to just talk to one another like people who actually want the best outcome, but like Prototart said, I'm not sure that matters any more. The most community participation in this site in the last week is people announcing they will no longer be participating in the community, and I can't even tell if pointing that out is a violation of the code of conduct because the code has been clarified until clarity is impossible.
So maybe this is the post I get banned for. If so, I'm not sure there's much left for me to mourn. I'll always be grateful to this site and this community for the support I found when I needed it most, and I'll regret everyone I hurt with my careless anger, but it doesn't seem like anyone I need to thank or apologize to is around to hear it anyway.
That's not a bad attempt to salvage a point from a pointless ramble, I guess. Yeah, I can be satisfied if it ends there.
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@lotherio Auspice was removed as admin based on her actions. People reacted badly to things that she did. Not to harm her or coerce her, but to stop her from continuing to hurt people.
Actions have consequences. I'm not party to what happened amongst the admin, but I do remember at least one hurtful lie that she spread about me personally that I was shocked and upset to discover evidence of, so ... I'm not at all sorry that someone who behaved that way is no longer a mod here.
Are you saying you are a neutral party? Because that's definitely not the perception you are conveying.
Your position on discord is weird. I gave out my discord ID because people I otherwise don't communicate with were banned or left the forum where I usually communicate with them. Now I talk to them on discord. Curious??
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auspice was not bullied off
https://musoapbox.net/topic/1828/helping-out
when she joined
https://musoapbox.net/topic/2504/i-owe-a-lot-of-people-some-apologies?_=1652884563698&lang=en-US
and the post that she very coincidentally quit as staff after
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How is reacting negatively to somebody's cruelty and harassment bullying wtf. Gaslighting nonsense as proof of wrongdoing.
Let me guess, next you're going to use how mean folks are to poor, poor Spider as proof? Or Cullen? Yeah, gosh guys, you REALLY need to be kinder to the bad actors of our hobby that try desperately to ruin it for other people for the FUN of it. How DARE anyone call people out on their actions. How DARE.
Maybe if Auspice didn't want to be "bullied" she should have...
wait for it...
...wait some more...
...stopped bullying other people. Or maybe just, you know, stopped lying about folks? That would have staved off the consequences of her actions for a while.
eta: And that was BEFORE I read the reposted links from Prototart. You'd rather have THAT behavior than people objecting to it?!
Yes. When people do TRULY SHITTY things, there's a group of people here that tend to agree with each other that that shit is shitty. If somebody is mean/nasty/cruel to other people, it is NOT dogpiling or mean to call them out on it. When people misbehave, consequences are not bullying.
Slut shaming definitely gets people "dogpiled". Is dogpiled actually the worse behavior, here?
Unrealistic demands of staff teams also get people "dogpiled", yes.
Poor behavior by admin on games get people "dogpiled", too. Which was once upon a time the whole point of the hogpit.
There's a whole lot of whining by parties that abuse other people that they're not allowed to just abuse other people, and their inability to slut shame or whine about TS is because they're being OPPRESSED or BULLIED.
they're not.
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The admin banned almost everyone who was protesting with no hesitation. I think you can stop stomping the picket lines to defend them from all the unwarranted terrorism, my guy! Like what even, lmao
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It has been suggested to me that this may be about Testament instead of Auspice. If that's the case, he quit/took a break because of a RL personal tragedy and it's really really really really really really gross to use him this way if you are.
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me not letting you punch me in the nose is not bullying no matter HOW many people object to you taking a swing
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I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the matter. I've voiced mine in other areas. I just wanted to touch on the Clique. Now I understand that a lot of times I rose-tint people and things. I also understand that filter goes on for my wrongdoings too. I have many. I am far from sainthood. Many.
However, in all the forums that I have been part of good, bad, ugly, beautiful, etc - they were there for various reasons. Some were to discuss fixes. Some were to vent frustrations. Some were to see if they were wrong in their thought processes. We have all 'dogpiled' at one point or another.
I can only speak from my perception of these things. I have been slut shamed, dogpiled, personally attacked on here and by people here -- but you know what? Also on here, I have been defended by strangers, been vindicated, been protected, been educated, and been told I was not insane by people too.
I don't think this perceived clique is truly there. They were banned before the Discord post went up that they could put their handle. They may be more than welcoming to people to join in - have you asked or are you just assuming you are not invited (you in general)? I'm sure that if I started to use Discord, I could join and I am not part of any cliques I am aware of.
Do I respect the opinions and thoughts and RP storytelling of some of the banned? Yep. Do I agree with all of them? Nope. Am I saddened by the way all of this has unfolded on various sides? Yep. Am I going to ask questions? Yep. I will try to do it respectfully.
My views (and this is my thoughts not the letter of the law) is that admin on games, in a job, in a community, on a BBS, in life, in virtual life, etc all have to be held at a higher standard than the 'masses' that they have authority over. Is that fair? Nope. However, I believe they are setting a standard. I do not believe any admin here is THE EVIL or bad. I believe they are human. Humans make errors. Humans aren't perfect. However, not all humans are the right choices for all things. That is what makes us awesome as people.
I, for one, am awesome if you need some over the top optimism in your life. I will cheerlead for you until I lose my breath. It doesn't make me good. It just makes me who I am. However, I am not the person to come to if you want to talk metrics and stats. I am not the one to come to if you want to find the right code to implement something. I am not the one to handle a coldly logical debate, because I'm not that person. I'm amazed by the people that are. I'm amazed at my coworkers in life that can look at data, blink once and give me the percentage of average to how feasible it is. I am in awe of people who understand the game dynamics of combat, of econ, and of all the moveable parts that are hard for me to understand.
I think there is a perception of cliques because those are the loudest voices. Or maybe I'm rose-tinted here too, but I'm okay with that. We are so quick to call it bullying when there are questions from multiple sources. We are so quick to call it a clique, but I don't think that's factual. I really don't think anyone is on their off time thinking how to make one person's life difficult on this site. I think they are just being human and responding to human feelings and thoughts.
Sorry to ramble.
Don't forget to be kind.
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@rightmeow said in Something Completely Different:
Don't forget to be kind.
Honestly, I'm cool with just this.
There's people behind the keys. That goes for people who were banned, and people who did the banning.
I think locking threads was iffy, but fine. I think locking MSB was a huge mistake. I think the bans that went out were almost entirely uncalled for, and should have been reversed. I think insisting on DMs was also a mistake, because people are inherently mistrusting of what happens in the dark. That's where the fear and mistrust and the idea of cliques and whisper campaigns comes from, warranted or not.
I'm as far from part of the 'clique' as it's envisioned can be, because I often disagree with the broad consensus, but I think at some point, we need to confront that mistakes were made, and doubling down on them has only harmed the site's credibility.
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@rightmeow I feel that the term "clique" is always externally applied. That is, no one who is inside a clique perceives themselves as part of one, and at least a couple of them probably hate another member's guts despite both of them agreeing on whatever topic they're now declared to be in a clique about. As such, it is hard for me to trust the opinion of someone who is not a part of the group they are trying to define by aspersion, just like how I can't trust conservative pundits about what it means to be "woke." I think that kind of outcome-determinative label ("I feel excluded, so your intention must have been to exclude me") can only ever be accidentally accurate.
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The recent changes to moderation levels across the board were the result of extensive discussion between mietze, Derp, and I. I am cognizant of their appearance, but it was the product of agreement between the three of us.
"Course correction" has been a slow process, and I appreciate everyone's patience through it. What I can say is that RL matters, which shall always take precedence, have taken priority. Until the admins as a collective are settled back into their normal pace of life, the process may continue to be slow.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@lotherio said in Something Completely Different:
I trust Gany to do as they said, review when things simmer down. Can we get there without more gas going into the fire?
Things have been almost totally inactive since the "fire" started. I don't know how much more simmered down it could get without just turning the server off.
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Thank you for this.
Transparency is arguably the most important element to these proceedings, and I think it's been where some of the major heartburn has stemmed from. I would urge the three of you to reevaluate some of the decisions that were made in the heat of the moment, and I hope that's being considered.
Bannings, especially, should be reserved largely for people who have gone far beyond the pale, and I think when the door was locked to the hogpit, it's quite natural that it spilled out. Some folks in that initial wave got slapped down for what were, ultimately, pretty innocuous statements.
I don't think it's impossible to restore goodwill, and I do think that even if unbanned, plenty of folks wouldn't come back anyhow, but it represented an inconsistent application of moderation, and I think everyone involved struggled with keeping a level head about it as the situation compounded.
I'm nevertheless glad to hear that course correction is being considered, and codifying the rules of engagement to be less floaty (to avoid inconsistent application of moderation) is something that should be considered. It needs a second pass to remove some of the ambiguity, which can currently be read as, "You can be banned if we feel like it."
While that's generally true of any online space, I don't think that was quite your staff's intentions with revising the rules of engagement, and it's how it reads from a mostly-neutral stance.
I do hope this is taken in the spirit it's intended, with the intent of being constructive.
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@ganymede said in Something Completely Different:
The recent changes to moderation levels across the board were the result of extensive discussion between mietze, Derp, and I. I am cognizant of their appearance, but it was the product of agreement between the three of us.
so why did you lie and tell people via DM that Derp would be removed
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@misterboring said in Something Completely Different:
Things have been almost totally inactive since the "fire" started. I don't know how much more simmered down it could get without just turning the server off.
It has been quiet, yes, but then 70% of the new threads since relate to the 'fire', someone's leaving because of, someone's trying to be funny snarky at Gany because of, or saying they don't get it something because of. Like, lets talk about games or something. I'm just saying from the outside, it doesn't all look good despite how many voices there might seem on the one side.
I'm just a surge protector doing my job, sir.
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@lotherio "from the outside"?
