Regarding administration on MSB

[TNP]

Gotta love the internet. Thank you archive site:

http://www.oocities.org/idealisticgamersunite/

edited to quote:

What's New:
August 8, 2002:

The move to the new IGU site is now more or less complete except for updating the new archive. We switched from ezboards to the sibermaus site for various reasons, including a disagreement with the way ezboards handled a problem on one of our sister forums.

edited again to add:

The 'problem' mentioned was when Ezboards shut down Tasteless Descs because Nymeria complained about her desc being posted there and said it was a copyright violation. It's the same reason WORA left Ezboards.

[Insomnia]

Whoops! Just needed to scroll down more.

Wasn't WORA before and after SWOFA?

[TNP]

@insomnia said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Whoops! Just needed to scroll down more.

Wasn't WORA before and after SWOFA?

If I recall right...

There was WORA on Ezboards. Then it moved and was still WORA. It moved a few times actually because Nymeria kept hounding the hosts till Pev moved it to Mali? Somewhere like that.

Eventually it shut down and became SWOFA. Then SWOFA shut down and we had WORA again. Then MSB.

[Insomnia]

@tnp Don't forget the WORA with comments which was mostly logs before EZboards.

Damn I'm... just going to and feel old in the corner now, kthanksbye.

[TNP]

@insomnia said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@tnp Don't forget the WORA with comments which was mostly logs before EZboards.

That... was before my time, actually. I wasn't a member then (though I was on various games).

[surreality]

@ghost said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@surreality well, then perhaps alongside the actual serial harassers, people shouldn't use the Hog Pit as a means to conduct mob justice warfare against people theyre upset with, or were inconvenienced by, or don't like their poses, or descriptions, or PB choices, or differences of opinion, or choice in games, or opinions on how their apologies are worded?

Bluntly: I don't especially care what crusade you're on this week, man. I am trying to keep my mouth shut in this powder-keg of a thread while being pretty horrified by a lot of what I'm seeing go down, so please leave me alone when you're picking targets to pin the 'somebody I feel like singling out for blame for everything I think is wrong with the universe this week' routine, because it's never ended well.

I do not deserve to have that all thrown in my face personally for simply and politely answering a question from @Ganymede that had nothing to do with any of what you're complaining about, and it's not OK with me.

@tnp said in Regarding administration on MSB:

That... was before my time, actually. I wasn't a member then (though I was on various games).

That one wasn't a forum -- it was just a generic website with a couple logs and a few random rants from one person. I think the only other content there for a long time was a thing I sent the owner that was a deliberately silly 'how to not write the world's most ridiculous (usually nude) desc' thing that talked about the old 90s trend of 99DDD boobs and why that made no sense, and similar stuff.

[faraday]

@tnp said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Some of you will be thinking 'Huh?' which is exactly my point. There's a reason why WORA has lasted so long in whatever form and Idealistic Gamers Unite went the way of the dodo a long time ago despite being contemporaries of each other.

There are numerous reasons some forums succeed and others fail. IGU wasn't a great forum for reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with its posting policy. And "this failed once back in 2002 so it will always fail" is pretty thin logic.

[surreality]

I think taking a look at the IGU posting standard for any potential dev section is worth considering.

gamers should have a place to gather in order to discuss various aspects of MU*ing in a constructive, if critical, manner without worrying about being flamed for their opinions. Constructive criticism is not never disagreeing with another's opinion, nor is it praising that which is sub-par so that you don't hurt someone's feelings. Instead, constructive criticism looks at a story, an idea, a post and offers suggestions to help improve whatever one thinks needs improving.

Think of English papers you've been handed back, what would be more helpful to you? "Sloppy work, do over!" or "You need to work on strengthening your main point, you should provide more evidence to support it." The latter is what IGU is looking for.

I would strongly support that.

[Prototart]

The very very very first was WORA as a logs and review site and then it had a board

This was idk 2000? Maybe?

Snark or SWOFA or whatever was next and happened cus Spider threw a tantrum about not being able to post pictures of people I think

I have less than no idea why I remember this

[RnMissionRun]

@prototart said in Regarding administration on MSB:

was idk 2000? Maybe?
Snark or SWOFA or whatever was next and happened cus Spider threw a tantrum about not being able to post pictures of people I think
I hav

Pretty sure it was 2000-2002. I do remember that I first heard of the site while hanging out on the Storyteller's Circle, and that's been gone for ages.

[EmmahSue]

Most of the time I consider it a Feature, not a Bug, that our community, our games, and our gaming, move in such cyclical ways. The fact that I'm not on a MU right now, and haven't been regularly in quite some time, doesn't mean I'll never play on one again. It just means I'm not playing on one right now. I'm not in the right place for it, no harm no foul.

The same goes here. If generic-you decides that MSB isn't the right place for you right now, that's okay. (If it's still here) in a few days, weeks, months, years, whathaveyou, then you get to glance in again. Maybe you'll be in a different space, maybe the forum will be; if you're still not jigsaw properly together, that's still okay. If you are, hurray! If you're not, please check in again in the future!

So if you're upset at Auspice, or Gany, or Ark: that's okay. They're not evil monsters. You're not one either. If you want them to improve, that's amazing, please keep trying. If you're done trying for improvement for a while, please come back later to see if it's still needed, when you're able. Almost no decision made here is permanent, the cycle will come 'round again.

The amount of emotion invested in improving this community is amazing. That doesn't mean it's always comfortable or pretty. That doesn't mean it's always going to change in a way you think is the right direction. You won't know if it's right for you until it is, and even then it'll take a while to be sure. If you have the energy to try to make it better, do it. If you don't, wait and see later.

This thread is definitely not comfortable, and certainly not pretty. But it shows people are trying, and as far as a burnt-out MUsher like myself is concerned, that's also a Feature.

ES

[krmbm]

I've been a semi-quiet follower of WORA in its many forms since... uh... it existed.

I gotta admit: As soon as I started seeing the mods making all these plans to Improve the Community, Engage the Users, and Create a Better Experience, I sighed and braced for the inevitable.

Like it or not, there's a reason that the Hog Pit - which has a gate to entry - accounts for 40% of the board's total posts: It's entertaining. When you start moderating the fun away, when you start trying to make the place full of constructive blah blah blah, it gets boring, people wander off, and it dies a heat death.

We've been bringing WORA back from the dead every time the forum was lost for almost 20 years; notice no one is doing the same for IGU? Yeah, that's 'cause it was boring.

Don't make MSB boring.

[Arkandel]

@krmbm I see no reason, and have no intention, of doing away with the Hog Pit.

The only moderation we've done so far is move threads to it, and the mistake we made was being too aggressive about it. No one's taking it away.

[Wizz]

@krmbm said in Regarding administration on MSB:

When you start moderating the fun away, when you start trying to make the place full of constructive blah blah blah, it gets boring, people wander off, and it dies a heat death.

Yeah, that actually says something about this community that I don't like and it's what I was trying to say earlier, both that there's enough bullshit toxicity to make up such a large chunk of the activity here and that there are people who not only enjoy it but actively encourage it. I've wondered for a long time why I've had such a hard time rejoining MU*ing and there are a lot of other reasons, some personal, but that's definitely one of them.

I don't mean to derail this thread or drag it down into a dumb pointless shouting match with anybody and if I had the patience or fortitude for a thread on this topic that would honestly probably be a better place for this, but 'll tell you something and keep it brief, I don't find the toxicity WORA was known for "entertaining" and I have a pretty low opinion of people who do, and it frustrates and discourages me that big meltdowns like the UH X-Men drama tend to draw new faces who want to see more of the same.

As Gany, Ark and Auspice discuss the Rules of Engagement 2.0, I'd like to echo others here who have said similar, what you want to see not just as hard rules but a general tone and spirit for the site should be a major piece of the discussion.

[Arkandel]

@wizz My issue isn't having the Hog Pit around or that people like a place they can get their fix.

The critical part is containing that sort of thing in there so it doesn't spill out into every other thread. We may need to slap a few wrists to make people behave like adults outside the Hog Pit, at least at first.

[Wizz]

@arkandel

I'm not arguing against the Hog Pit right now and wouldn't take it as far as @Ghost in saying that you guys should dissolve it entirely, it serves its purpose, but I really would like to see it become its own thing on the forum rather than dominate it, like you're saying. I'll wait and see how you all want to try and handle that and help however I can.

[surreality]

I'd certainly be on board with 'frothing diatribes, whether aimed at someone or not, should be pit-only'. I mean, I know it's more of a pain in the ass to split the hairs to define what that means than the simple statement suggests, but I do think that's in the 'good ideas' column.

I'd rather see the real vitriol focused in one place, and either constructive and/or honest review crit elsewhere. Ideally, with a few productive/collaboratively-focused spots much like we have now for how-tos and whatnot (which have generally remained civil and ideally should just stay focused on positive growth/creative brainstorming on code or concepts/sharing created things/etc., same as it's been).

Honest reviews can address serious issues. It's possible to relate an account of a bad experience with someone doing a bad thing without calling them a shit-fucking bag of dicks that should die in a fire in the process. "I was <place>, and I wouldn't return, because <name> made me really uncomfortable when s/he wouldn't stop paging to ask me to write a sexy nude desc. It was creepy." <-- This would be perfectly reasonable as an honest review crit, from my perspective.

I mean, being realistic, this isn't perfect either; some folks will see any criticism of any kind as the utmost of brutality. Others will cheerfully pervert anything into a soul-rending attack on their very core identity, no matter how trivial, or not even related to them in any way. (Realistically? That's not fun to deal with. Not here, and not on a game. If somebody's going to behave that way, I'd rather find out on the forum, personally.) Some people visit that attitude toward life, other people live there full time -- either way, that's not going to be fun to deal with -- but with some basic guidelines for civil crit posted, it should ideally keep the legitimate causes for grievance down across the (pun not intended) board.

[faraday]

@wizz said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I don't find the toxicity WORA was known for "entertaining" and I have a pretty low opinion of people who do, and it frustrates and discourages me that big meltdowns like the UH X-Men drama tend to draw new faces who want to see more of the same.

Yeah. I get that @Arkandel has no intention of doing away with the hog pit. That's the mods' right and it is not my intention to beat a dead horse.

But I will say this: We talk sometimes about the future of MUSHing, about how hard it is to draw in new players, etc. As someone who knows writers who might be interested, who has a daughter who some day might be interested... I can't in good conscience invite them into a gaming community that is so darn toxic. And I'm not just talking about MSB here, because the same attitude that feeds the Hog Pit pervades the games too.

Now it's not all bad. But it is pretty disheartening.

[Prototart]

From what I've seen in my relatively short time here the vitriol here has, like, basically no impact at all in terms of damaging MU*ing, esp when you compare to all the shit that the vitriol gets directed at

Like, I don't invite people I know RL to do stuff cus MU*s have a huge problem with abusers and corruption and shit like that, not because somebody's rude here or whatever

[faraday]

@prototart said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Like, I don't invite people I know RL to do stuff cus MU*s have a huge problem with abusers and corruption and shit like that, not because somebody's rude here or whatever

I'm saying it's related and pervasive. You're free to disagree.