Alternative Formats to MU
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Let me try to get this back on track.
Query: What are 5 core functions or commands necessary or desired for a MUSH?
Next Query: For each of the 5 core functions, how would you envision them in a non-telnet (command line) UI format?
I'll start this exercise.
1. say/pose/emit
This is essentially the same command: you are projecting text that others in the same room can see. For a UI, I'd like to see a button that pops open a window you can type into. Once you're done typing the message, you click a button on the window somewhere that closes the window and projects the message on my main window (let's call it 'the Screen').
2. moving/exits/rooms
Ideally, when moving from room to room, I'd like to see a description pop up on the Screen, which will also show who is in the room. I'd like to abandon the traditional exit-to-room-to-exit-to-room way most MUSHes use; instead, have a drop down list or new window of All Public Rooms, and simply pick which one you want to go to.
3. bulletin boards
I like the idea of simply using forums. They are complex enough to handle any task that they are used on MUShes for. The end.
4. mail
Something like a normal mail browser would be simple and easy to use, and appealing. Hell, you could just have people use Gmail, with the benefit of having functions like GoogleDocs and GoogleSchedule.
5. generating a character
Honestly, the best way to do this is send some sort of document or form to staff, and let them generate the character for you. Using a wiki, you could set up a bunch of templates that people can select to start with, and just add additional freebie points or whatever to customize. All someone would have to do to make a character would be to point out which template they wanted, where to put the "free" points, and submit a request to staff.
Just some ideas.
If a game where to implement these, or had a UI that could handle what limited UI functions I've mentioned, then I'd be more than interested in checking it out. We've already determined that I have no interest in learning to code everything up, but implementing these policies for a game might lower the barrier of entry into MUSH-style gaming considerably.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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Another example of a web based chargen for an Evennia game. Not sure how complete it is.
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I think one thing that is core to M*ing and the reason we're having this conversation rather than cobbling a game together out of a wiki, Gmail, and a chat client is that everything is COHESIVE.
I don't have to add a google account, I don't have to change what I'm logged into, I don't have to have separate log-ins for different things (mostly).
So when thinking about web-based alternatives, I think it's useful to think 'this could work like Gmail' or 'this would be great like google docs', but less useful to say 'just use google'.
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@tat said in Alternative Formats to MU:
So when thinking about web-based alternatives, I think it's useful to think 'this could work like Gmail' or 'this would be great like google docs', but less useful to say 'just use google'.
This is all very true. When I say above "let's use Google," I more meant "I'd like my UI experience to be similar to Google's online junk, and maybe you could pluck some ideas from there as to what I, as a gamer, might like to have."
Except forums. Forums are awesome. Just great.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@rook said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Let's start going through actual UI/UX exercises and proposals.
I’m with @meg that I’m a bit exhausted trying to justify modernizing 30-year-old technology. But I will indulge with one little example:
@rook said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Consider the UI of such a game where you have a widget for every way to communicate on a MUSH. You would have to have a popup window (or whatever your UI solution is) for:
Paging - Posing (including: emote, pose, and say) - OOC talk - Places talk (including tt, ttooc, ttpose, et al.) - BBoards - IC Phones, Messengers, Missives, and whatever else your game has - Channels
It makes zero sense to do all those things separately in a web client.
- Pages/Channels/Mail become Chat like Discord/Slack/etc. One’s just public and the other two are private.
- Posing/OOC talk/Places are all just different ways to Add to a Scene.
- BBoards become a Forum.
- Grid/movement would be gone. Choosing/changing location is just an integral part of conducting a scene.
That's what I meant when I talked about a paradigm shift instead of just slapping a web UI onto the current MUSH commands.
As for the UX? You’ll probably want a chat window at the bottom/side of your screen at all times because that's so important. Forum and Scene are things you would use separate tabs for depending on what you felt like dealing with.
And oh-by-the-way nothing stops you from having several tabs for different scenes just as you’d have different windows open in your web client. Difference is - you can do multiple scenes with the same character. No more spoofing or silly OOC puppet nonsense. So many clunky things that we're required to do because of the telnet client restrictions just fall away.
@tat said in Alternative Formats to MU:
And I'm pretty sure that there's lots of room for improvement on what Ares has so far, even. Helpful error messages, tips and hints, auto-calculators, ALL KINDS OF THINGS.
Oh yeah. The current CG is lame compared to what you can do with a responsive javascript framework (which is what I’m working on). Yet even that lame-o web version is a gazillion times easier than doing it in-game.
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Anyone who works in an environment where the norm is MANY MANY TOOLS GUYZ will recognize the overhead and harassment of flipping from tool to tool to tool to accomplish things. My entire career right now (and indeed, much of the strategic effort of IT nowadays) is consolidation.
I would inject here that the separation of duties into multiple tools and windows defeats the purpose and will not be a positive. If you can build an interface to /source/ all of those different things into one window, and make that window as accessible to as many platforms as possible, you might have traction.
Context-switching is already deadly in MUSHing. We all know that.
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I would add to your list:
1. Private real-time communication between players
Really, there is no reason that mail and page can't be joined together. If you have persistent chat like in slack or google chat or facebook messenger, the difference becomes negligible. But I do think it's worth having the 'real time' addition.
2. Conflict resolution
Not every game uses this, but combat code or dice code built in is one of the reasons that just throwing together a wiki and a chat client is not awesome.
3. The ability to improve/grow/adjust your sheet
This would include earning XP, spending XP.
3. Logging/sharing scenes
Again, I know not every game does this, but a lot do these days. I really like the core of Faraday's thinking re: scenes for this, in terms of capturing just the RP bits and putting it somewhere, and then feeding it out in a list that could, in theory, be manipulated by different things. For example, sorted by date, or title, or character name. Searchable by the same. Etc.
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@rook said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Context-switching is already deadly in MUSHing. We all know that.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? Are you talking about leaving your client window to open a browser window?
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Different conversation(s), but yes. Talk recently here about people being slow in RP because of too many other distractions. It's the entire reason a lot of people have personally told me that they cannot RP until they get home, but they hang out on the game all day to chat.
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I would venture to correct your statement to 'context-switching can be deadly in MUSHing'.
I make this case because I have RPed with lots of people who context-switch a lot and do just fine. It's very common for me to RP with a wiki window open to reference help files, especially if I'm GMing. I am /already/ doing this context-switching. I'm already reminding myself of something that happened in a past scene by pulling up the log, or checking out that character's phobias on their wiki page so I can be evil to them in a scene.
Adding tabs is not the context switching that causes me problems. That happens when I'm also watching a movie, or reading a book, or wrestling with work. The 'context' for me is 'I'm RPing', not the tools I'm using.
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@tat said in Alternative Formats to MU:
I would add to your list:
1. Private real-time communication between players
Really, there is no reason that mail and page can't be joined together. If you have persistent chat like in slack or google chat or facebook messenger, the difference becomes negligible. But I do think it's worth having the 'real time' addition.
That's a good point. I like it.
2. Conflict resolution
3. The ability to improve/grow/adjust your sheet
I think this is system-sensitive. Lots of games employ consent or description-based stats, so I didn't think these were "core" functions.
3. Logging/sharing scenes
Ares already has an impressive engine for this, but this is also a doo-dad. You can just as easily cut-and-paste what's on the Screen, which is what I had to do with zMUD.
@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:
- Pages/Channels/Mail become Chat like Discord/Slack/etc. One’s just public and the other two are private.
- Posing/OOC talk/Places are all just different ways to Add to a Scene.
- BBoards become a Forum.
- Grid/movement would be gone. Choosing/changing location is just an integral part of conducting a scene.
That's what I meant when I talked about a paradigm shift instead of just slapping a web UI onto the current MUSH commands.
This is probably what I meant to say in my first post, and is said much better.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@rook said in Alternative Formats to MU:
Oops! Something has gone wrong. Please check your error logs. uninitialized constant AresMUSH::WebApp::Engine
Oops. Apparently there's a bug in the web registration. Ah, beta.
You can see a better version on the web portal prototype.
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@ganymede said in Alternative Formats to MU:
I think this is system-sensitive. Lots of games employ consent or description-based stats, so I didn't think these were "core" functions.
You're right, but if we're honestly talking about something to replace telnet, I think that our 'core' needs to be broader than 'every game uses this'. It needs to have a full enough list of features that people go 'that looks better', and that's going to include, IMO, logging and conflict resolution.
Otherwise I might as well just crank up a wiki and a slack or discord server.
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@tat I don't think combat resolution is right for a core component. Maybe some universal dice roller, but anything more is just getting in the way, imo.
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@glitch I had dice roller in my list of possibilities!
I agree that full-fledged combat is not necessary, but I think a lot of people rely on basic conflict resolution. Even on games I've played without sheets and lots of consent, we'd sometimes flip coins.
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@glitch said in Alternative Formats to MU:
@tat I don't think combat resolution is right for a core component. Maybe some universal dice roller, but anything more is just getting in the way, imo.
I think you want a plugin system that works like Wordpress type plugins; there's a catalog of available plugins and you can pick one from an admin page that shows that catalog, and click 'Install'. That way, you can have a WoD chargen/conflict resolution system, or a Fate Core one, or FS3, or whatever else. Just pick it from the list of contributed plugins and click 'install', it installs, the server restarts, et voila. And now you have a shiny new web admin page for that chargen system, etc.
Honestly, I think that's another place things could be made more accessible; instead of "let me go out and find code on github and then go figure out how to install it", you just have a catalog of add-ons you can click, as well as a way to install ones that aren't in the catalog.
a.k.a. Packetdancer (or "Pax" for short)
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@sparks Right, but I'm talking about core. The essentials of what you get from a "base" install. I definitely think there should be system plugins for all the things.
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@glitch said in Alternative Formats to MU:
@sparks Right, but I'm talking about core. The essentials of what you get from a "base" install. I definitely think there should be system plugins for all the things.
So, I think 'core'/'base' install should include support for a plugin system with a catalog of plugins...
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@glitch said in Alternative Formats to MU:
@auspice Yes, your anecdotal evidence is the correct basis for all the factual statements you've made in your posts so far in this thread. The sheer disrespect and dismissiveness of those not in this hobby, but perhaps interested, matched to the misplaced sense of writing superiority, is infuriating. I'm obviously of the belief that telnet is no longer where I'd like to see the hobby go, but when you adamantly state it's not for you, I can't say I'll be sorry if that turns out to be true.
Someone more even-tempered at the moment might suggest that they hope you're so impressed by new developments that you change your mind, but I think your attitude toward new people will only ever be detrimental. And I'd rather take my chances with them.
This is the most politely worded "Fuck off" I've ever received. Thank you for your time and effort
I support Faraday's efforts on Ares and the web portal. We've had arguments on it, yes. And some things still frustrate me. Even with the web cg. I wish that was all on one page or didn't require reloading between tabs, but it's getting there (I know it's still in development, after all).
But a lot of her work is actively in support of RP and not just for the shiny. That's what I'm trying to say. I don't want change just for the sake of change. I want to see things developed that encourage and enable rp.
I hate logging. I always have. I do not log. I do not edit logs. I do not post them. You have to really pressure me. Except with her scene system. I love it. I sing its praises. And that love goes beyond the logging. I hate big grids. I think people need more freedom to pick where they rp. More flexibility. I get lost on grids and when there's only a few rp rooms, all full... It's like fuck, now what? I'll lose my desire to rp before I ever get oriented. Her system gets rid of that issue.
She's made solutions within the framework that has encouraged more role play. The thing we're here for. I support this.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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You're right, but if we're honestly talking about something to replace telnet, I think that our 'core' needs to be broader than 'every game uses this'. It needs to have a full enough list of features that people go 'that looks better', and that's going to include, IMO, logging and conflict resolution.
Point of order... I am confused by the constant usage of the word 'telnet' in this conversation. Telnet is a protocol, like HTTP or SMTP or SSH. This misunderstanding has clogged a lot of this conversation from a technical perspective.
I think the better term to be using here would be 'server codebase', which is the application like PennMUSH or RhostMUSH or TinyMUX or AresMUSH that people are logging into. That is what provides the features that you are discussing.
Not picking on anyone, but please. Unless you are speaking to the specific carrier protocol that people use to log into the server, don't use the word 'telnet'.
What is being discussed here is design for the server, not the protocol.
Also? Please don't just say "Whatever Rook", because it is important when you are engaging people from a technical perspective. God help us if @Ashen-Shugar sees this.
