@BigDaddyAmin said:

^This

I am upvoting your post, @BigDaddyAmin , just because one cannot double-upvote @Miss-Demeanor 's post.

I swear, every time that someone mentions "Republican", "Conservative", "Democrat", "Liberal"... my finger lingers over the nuke button. I am so fucking sick of politics (and broken, fucked up politics at that!) that it will, at some point, drive me off of games, this board and so many other things that I enjoy.

I already avoid the news, have given up social media, and so many other things because of it, in the avoidance of it.

Not that anyone gives a shit about me, but seriously, I am not the only person/American here and elsewhere that is beyond the puking stage with politics and the zealotry and idle attacks.

This happened today. A good female friend, a self-proclaimed Feminist who loves to go on and on about sexism and inequality, today ends up all depressed because her crush isn't going right. All was fine, we talked about it, until she blurted out that she was tired of waiting.

Me: "Waiting on what?"
Her: "For him to ask me out! I'm starting to think that he doesn't like me!"
Me: "Why haven't you approached him?"
Her: "He's the guy!"
Me: "What does that have to do with anything?"
Her: "What?! What do you mean? It's the man's job to make the first move!"
Me: facepalms "You're serious? That's sexist, don't you think? What happened to equality?"

We talked a little longer, and now I think she has a little better grasp as to why I was so shocked to hear her talk like that.

I've always said that the first group to establish RP in a public place has the privledge of setting tone, action and scene. They took the initiative to get things started, likely have something in mind as to direction and maybe a plot, who knows.

People who join should take the time to meld into the scene, not try and force the scene to adapt to them.

@surreality
Fuck players who cannot bother to READ on a text-based game. Fuck them and all that they hold dear. I cannot count the number of people who misread, skim or outright skip character descriptions and end up posing stupid shit due to that ignorance. Room descs, when on grid, are even more of a crime against the game.

I have, and forever shall, OOCly laughed and made fun of people who cannot bother to fucking READ on a MU*. GTFO, seriously, go back to WOW or whatever made you think that you could roleplay.

The conversation has come up on MUSH (the PennMUSH Dev/Community site) about MU visibility on the web, resources and attracting new players. I thought I would post it here, as well, since this is another active collaboration area of MUs.

So here's the idea. What I am proposing is not really my idea, it has been kicked around a few times by several people. It has been poopooed and smirked at, but it keeps coming up.

What I would love to see is a central community-run place where we can disseminate information. OGR/MU-Gateway used to be a great place to find new games, now it is mostly dead (sorry to those that run the place, it needs life). We did discuss a few weeks back MUDStats.com and the ever-loving MushCode.com listings and how they were tied together, but suffering from single ownership (slow updates, etc). The idea came up to band a community site together where not a single person or two administrated it, but many did.

I think it is worthwhile for us, as a community, to get together and form this idea. Elect a committee, build a damn nice website that is collaborative and solid, and ad-campaign the hell out of it to draw everyone in MU*dom in. Not necessarily the players at first, but the MU owners, the developers, the coders, etc. The players will then come naturally.

This is an effort that we all benefit from. Game information/ads and lists, softcode releases, softcode repositories, coding forums and discussions, server/hardcode forums, Guides on how to run MU*s, etc. We all contribute everything we can find, we sort and organize it, and we invite others to curate and update that information trove.

Software projects get big on consolidation and collaboration. That is what we should be aiming for, IMNSHO.

Now, MuSoapbox is clearly already a step in this direction, but since it focuses on specific areas (guides, discussions, some code), I think it is a piece of the solution. I foresee MuSoapbox being either a link off of this idea-site, perhaps even worked into it so that everything is in one spot, still run by @Thenomain , @EmmahSue and @Glitch .

The benefits:

• One site, areas run/curated/administrated by teams that are self-electing, appointed, whatever you choose.
• One site to advertise your game at, find help, etc.
• One site to consolidate and point players to for information and help, like these very forums.
• Collaborative administration, whereas it becomes the Wikipedia.org-level go-to resource for all things MUSH/MUX. In this manner, singular people going idle do not make a site unusable.

To give an idea of what we envisioned, MushCode.com/MudStats.com's MUSH listings, curated and ran by a team instead of one/two people. Forums for discussions like this. Code repositories with full credit given to authors/sources but just dragged and stored in one place. Links to the github repos and project sites for PennMUSH, TinyMUX and RhostMUSH (and any others that opt in). A blog-like front-end for announcements, RSS feeds subscribable (do people still do those?), new games going up, releases, etc.

We have this expertise in the community. We have a need. We have people looking for it. I think we should get people together and start it. I will even volunteer to get things off the ground until we get the ball rolling, people step up to take curatorship of various areas, etc.

All I'm trying to say is that on the one hand, MSB encourages stricter, tighter staffing... but then is quick (I should say 'was quick', in the WORA days) to roast a staff for doing just that. Let's just take that into account in the conversation here, as I feel it is relevant.

Wellhung: Hello, Sweetheart. What do you look like?
Sweetheart: I am wearing a red silk blouse, a miniskirt and high heels. I work out every day, I'm toned and perfect. My measurements are 36-24-36. What do you look like?
Wellhung: I'm 6'3" and about 280 pounds.I wear glasses and I have on a pair of blue sweat pants I just bought from Walmart.I'm also wearing a T-shirt with a few spots of barbecue sauce on it from dinner...it smells funny.
Sweetheart: I want you.Would you like to screw me?
Wellhung: OK
Sweetheart: We're in my bedroom.There's soft music playing on the stereo and candles on my dresser and night table.I'm looking up into your eyes, smiling. My hand works its way down to your crotch and begins to fondle your huge, swelling bulge.
Wellhung: I'm gulping, I'm beginning to sweat.
Sweetheart: I'm pulling up your shirt and kissing your chest.
Wellhung: Now I'm unbuttoning your blouse.My hands are trembling.
Sweetheart: I'm moaning softly.
Wellhung: I'm taking hold of your blouse and sliding it off slowly.
Sweetheart: I'm throwing my head back in pleasure.The cool silk slides off my warm skin.I'm rubbing your bulge faster, pulling and rubbing.
Wellhung: My hand suddenly jerks spastically and accidentally rips a hole in your blouse.I'm sorry.
Sweetheart: That's OK, it wasn't really too expensive.
Wellhung: I'll pay for it.
Sweetheart: Don't worry about it.I'm wearing a lacy black bra.My soft breasts are rising and falling, as I breath harder and harder.
Wellhung: I'm fumbling with the clasp on your bra.I think it's stuck. Do you have any scissors?
Sweetheart: I take your hand and kiss it softly.I'm reaching back undoing the clasp. The bra slides off my body. The air caresses my breasts. My nipples are erect for you.
Wellhung: How did you do that? I'm picking up the bra and inspecting the clasp.
Sweetheart: I'm arching my back. Oh baby. I just want to feel your tongue all over me.
Wellhung: I'm dropping the bra. Now I'm licking your, you know, breasts. They're neat!
Sweetheart: I'm running my fingers through your hair. Now I'm nibbling your ear.
Wellhung: I suddenly sneeze. Your breasts are covered with spit and phlegm.
Sweetheart: What?
Wellhung: I'm so sorry. Really.
Sweetheart: I'm wiping your phlegm off my breasts with the remains of my blouse.
Wellhung: I'm taking the sopping wet blouse from you. I drop it with a plop.
Sweetheart: OK. I'm pulling your sweat pants down and rubbing your hard tool.
Wellhung: I'm screaming like a woman. Your hands are cold! Yeeee!
Sweetheart: I'm pulling up my miniskirt. Take off my panties.
Wellhung: I'm pulling off your panties. My tongue is going all over, in and out nibbling on you...umm... wait a minute.
Sweetheart: What's the matter?
Wellhung: I've got a pubic hair caught in my throat. I'm choking.
Sweetheart: Are you OK?
Wellhung: I'm having a coughing fit. I'm turning all red.
Sweetheart: Can I help?
Wellhung: I'm running to the kitchen, choking wildly. I'm fumbling through the cabinets, looking for a cup. Where do you keep your cups?
Sweetheart: In the cabinet to the right of the sink.
Wellhung: I'm drinking a cup of water. There, that's better.
Sweetheart: Come back to me, lover.
Wellhung: I'm washing the cup now.
Sweetheart: I'm on the bed arching for you.
Wellhung: I'm drying the cup. Now I'm putting it back in the cabinet. And now I'm walking back to the bedroom. Wait, it's dark, I'm lost. Where's the bedroom?
Sweetheart: Last door on the left at the end of the hall.
Wellhung: I found it.
Sweetheart: I'm tuggin' off your pants. I'm moaning. I want you so badly.
Wellhung: Me too.
Sweetheart: Your pants are off. I kiss you passionately-our naked bodies pressing each other.
Wellhung: Your face is pushing my glasses into my face. It hurts.
Sweetheart Why don't you take off your glasses?
Wellhung: OK, but I can't see very well without them. I place the glasses on the night table.
Sweetheart: I'm bending over the bed. Give it to me, baby!
Wellhung: I have to pee. I'm fumbling my way blindly across the room and toward the bathroom.
Sweetheart: Hurry back, lover.
Wellhung: I find the bathroom and it's dark. I'm feeling around for the toilet. I lift the lid.
Sweetheart: I'm waiting eagerly for your return.
Wellhung: I'm done going. I'm feeling around for the flush handle, but I can't find it. Uh-oh!
Sweetheart: What's the matter now?
Wellhung: I've realized that I've peed into your laundry hamper. Sorry again. I'm walking back to the bedroom now, blindly feeling my way.
Sweetheart: Mmm, yes. Come on.
Wellhung: OK, now I'm going to put my...you know ...thing...in your...you know...woman's thing.
Sweetheart: Yes! Do it, baby! Do it!
Wellhung: I'm touching your smooth butt. It feels so nice. I kiss your neck. Umm, I'm having a little trouble here.
Sweetheart: I'm moving my ass back and forth, moaning. I can't stand it another second! Slide in! Screw me now!
Wellhung: I'm flaccid.
Sweetheart: What?
Wellhung: I'm limp. I can't sustain an erection.
Sweetheart: I'm standing up and turning around; an incredulous look on my face.
Wellhung: I'm shrugging with a sad look on my face, my weiner all floppy. I'm going to get my glasses and see what's wrong.
Sweetheart: No, never mind. I'm getting dressed. I'm putting on my underwear. Now I'm putting on my wet nasty blouse.
Wellhung: No wait! Now I'm squinting, trying to find the night table. I'm feeling along the dresser, knocking over cans of hair spray, picture frames and your candles.
Sweetheart: I'm buttoning my blouse. Now I'm putting on my shoes.
Wellhung: I've found my glasses. I'm putting them on. My God! One of our candles fell on the curtain. The curtain is on fire! I'm pointing at it, a shocked look on my face.
Sweetheart: Go to hell. I'm logging off, you loser!
Wellhung: Now the carpet is on fire! Oh noooo!

Anything that is done by command line is, by sheer necessity, a complex command string, period. MUSH derives from MUD, all of them are telnet-based interfaces because that is what was around, cheap and easy to run in the 90s.

Most anyone who cannot fathom commands in MUSH are the either going to do one of two things:

1. complain, grump and walk away and go back to their non-coded Chat Room RP or
2. be intrigued by Something New and Cool enough to actually start to learn things.

The average intelligent player (and come on, you have to be intelligent to MUSH) will learn how to MUSH in a matter of one or two days for the majority of anything that they have to do. I personally have seen more people walk away from their first time MUSHing for reasons having to do with the complexity of the RPG being used (I'm looking at you, WoD) or because of the interpersonal interactions had on the game itself with the Staff/Players, than I have ever seen leave because of "all that typing".

With that said, players will either be open to learning something new to fill an entertainment void in their life, or they won't. Format, media, interaction all matter, but what MUSH has going for it is the sheer quality of that entertainment, no matter how you present it.

It just floors me that this group of people on this board are so outraged and shocked by this bad behavior by these famous people. I'm shocked because of all people, you all should know by now the sheer stupidity of mankind just based on the cross-section of bullshit that MUSHers do, discussed on these very boards.

It's laughable, because it seems that, because you have some sort of celebrity crush on this person or that person, that they are above and beyond the same dark and ignorant urges and imperfections that infect the rest of the race.

We roll our eyes and say "Oh, really. Again?" each time someone mentions sexism, racism, whateverism on a game. It's barely discussed before said perpetrator is dismissed and life goes on. But, if a Celebrity gets the very same accusations, everyone loses their damned minds for weeks or months on end. There is endless wailing and flagellation.

Are these people so high and mighty that they become that different, that worshiped, that they get this Special Consideration?

I, too, agree with Ghost's conclusions.

As usual, my posts tend to focus on a specific point someone has made, trying to make sure that said specific point doesn't get lost in the other specific points. I think that being excluded because you are an unknown factor is a Real Thing.

@Lotherio's chalk board analogy is a Real Thing, too. Do a few social experiments, as some have up above, and you might see things in a different light.

MSB is a clique. You may boo and hiss at me for saying so, so blatantly, but it's ultimately true.

Staff on a game are the people on the game who can Make Things Happen most easily, so when a staff-run scene is opened, people flock and step on each other to get there. It's worse than Black Friday at Walmart.

It says a lot about the state of MU*ing when we've come to a point that people cannot find RP because others are too worried about:

1. previously banned players,
2. disgusting OOC stalkery/gross behavior,
3. in-game spy worries,
4. being triggered.

I know that you think that this is shocking (if you are not being sarcastic or facetious), but it is much more common than you might understand. It happens a lot of WoD/CoD games that I've tried joining. Make a new character and make some page-contacts, looking for people who might want fresh RP in their circles, and almost every time I get asked who I am.

I can somewhat understand fear of inter-Sphere spies, but god damn. When I state that I am new here and just looking for RP? I'm not giving up personal/identifiable information to sate someone's fears. Sorry, I'm not who you suspect I am, but thanks anyway, I'll look elsewhere.

Back to Arkandel's shock, however, it no longer shocks me to get this sentiment from MUSHers. It just doesn't. It may be inflammatory, but I think that many long-entrenched players on a game absolutely feel threatened by others. This is a game, people. It isn't your job, your livelihood, or your RL relationship. And right now? All those "But Rook"s on the tip of tongues out there just, to me, prove my point that Ghost is right.

If the OOC Game means that much to you, you are part of the problem.

Replying because my last post wandered and didn't make a point:

I've met several people that have made no bones about outright saying "If I dont know you, we don't RP" and then they needle for past characters/games/interaction information to place me by. I have learned to simply smile and shrug, tell them that it is their loss, and I move on. I am not here to suppliment my life with online OOC drama, I get enough via work and my RL social/family life.

Some people/personality types thrive on interpersonal drama, I do not. I do not need to feed on people's energy in such ways. I much prefer to build people up, support them on rough days, help them find fun.

There is something to be noted here, however, and that is a lot of RP cliques that I have run into in the last 3-4 years have been of a mindset that "We don't know you, so you will get minimal attention/inclusion until we have judged you".

I normally do not advertise who I am, where. I very briefly had my AresMUSH @handle linked to a character, but removed it because it just grew more and more annoying to me. I do not play the OOC game. I, in fact, stay the hell out of any OOC conversations about a game or the players on it. I just don't want to see behind the curtain.

I agree with Ghost - there are people out there that appear (to me) to be into MUSHing mostly for the "OOC Game" or "metagame" as many describe it. They derive their fun out of the OOC interaction, for good or ill, and not the IC character stories. I say this because: 1) They very rarely RP (maybe once every 3-4 months, by their recounting), 2) 99% of their MUSH time is spent chatting and talking.

Some of those people that I describe and have talked to over the last couple of years, are the very people at the top rungs of a few games' IC structures. The IC leaders of the game. Not RPing. Not stepping down for the more actively-IC people vying for the position, either.

Having had more than a few conversations with players over the years, just in natural chats, it seems to be that this happens everywhere. As one said, "It is how MUSHing is."

So, as a result of this, I don't advertise who I am, where I play. I have no playlist. Not because I've done horrible things or been banned anywhere, I just enjoy my anonymity. I like meeting new people who may be old friends but I don't know it yet, but yet neither do they. Discovering great RPers and friends is the joy of the game for me, 50-50 with the great stories written.

The moment when, during a company All-Hands, one person in the spotlight mentions that they played "an RPG where you played a vampire" and the chatroom chime-ins of 'Vampire the Masquerade' hit double-digits in five seconds.

I tend to make brownies that you cannot eat one of without a whole glass of milk. So gooey-rich that they slow-motion crumble in your hand. Hmm. Back later.

@sparks brings up a good point. People (MU*ers) will not give up their client for one or two games. If they are still playing a MUX, Rhost or Penn game, they will stay in their client.

Any client built for this, if you want to retain BOTH groups of players, has to adapt to this new platform alongside any MUSH/MUX that it works for, as well.

A point of consideration.

@alzie said in The Death Of Telnet: Is It Time To Face The Music?:

@surreality The loudest ones usually don't understand what you're doing anyways, but it's certainly not conducive to any of the developers 'give a fuck' rating if everyone keeps telling us how little they want it. Hope the project goes well.

Regarding this talk of the next version of Mu, however, what do you want out of the interface? Everyone keeps clamoring for the removal of telnet. Fine, but you're just replacing that with something else. If not telnet, it will be some other form of server-client communication. Maybe you do that through HTTP Requests, Maybe you make your own protocol (Relevant XKCD), Maybe you do it by email, Maybe you do it by wikis or forums or Maybe you just decide to do it by database queries (Relevant XKCD).

We're all talking about eliminating the data source, but that has nothing to do with the interface. People wanted HTML in Telnet, so pueblo exists. People wanted sound in Telnet, so we came up with ways to do that (IRC used a protocol command, Muds had MSP). People wanted really involved GUIs with Graphics and what not, so they made entire GUI Clients (see Batmud Client, or the many plugins for Mushclient that create GUIs for games).

So we change to another data source, the popular idea so far seeming to be a database backed RESTful front end, but what do you actually want out of that interface? What should it do differently? It's still only going to have text to display to you. How should the text look differently? Yeah, we can do some better things with CG that way, but we could do the same things with telnet and pueblo.

I'm not the old man on the corner telling everyone not to advance, but maybe we should actually talk about what we want out of the advancement? At least a semi-clear goal.

QFTFT. Again.

(Oh look. ANOTHER coder asking for a technical discussion. Good luck, Alzie.)

@auspice I think your interviewer was multi-mushing, if the interview scene got so slow and distracted. You should have said something OOC and bailed. Rewarding that sort of distracted play is a waste of your time. You should raise a complaint to the staff of the place. Do they have a +gripe command?